Kitchen Electrics and the law

[jo4nny8]

Hi all.

First post and hopefully ive put it in the right location.

I need some help with regard to a legal case i am embroiled in and am trying to find out some information.

Basically my company performed a kitchen installation in a customers house. As part of the installation we installed some new appliances (cooker, extractor, washing machine and dishwasher) All of the appliances plugged in to existing sockets that were already present and we performed NO electrics whatsoever (basically a dry cabinet fit with tiling and worktops etc)

When we removed the kitchen, an electrician who was performing some works on the customers property advised the customer that there were electrics in the kitchen that were not up to current regulations. (basically an old cooker feed in 6mm cable was being used to power 3 sockets in an area around the cooker) The customer then expected us to rectify this problem as the electrician had said they were unsafe.

After explaining to the customer that we had not charged for this and were performing NO electrics within the installation he would have to pay for the remedials required and as such we suggested that this other electrician is best to do the work as he is already on site. The customer agreed and we left it at that.

Now the customer (6 months later) is taking me to court over a few items and the main point is with these electrics and that he now has to have a whole new kitchen (the quote has come from this other electrican) and wants £8000 off me because of this.

My terms and conditions state we wont do electrics and also that if there is extra work we charge for it but im now concerned i should have done the electrics.

As far as im concerned, if a 17th edition electrician says work is required and he is doing electrics on a house, then he is liable for all testing of the circuits and making sure that it conforms to the current regs. Am i right or am i liable???

Can anyone help and thanks for the time
John

 

[johnboy6083]

inmy mind you are not responsible for the wiring, just as if im wiring your house, im not responsible for the plumbing!
How are your kitchen fitters supposed to be competent enough to comment upon the wiring? if you stated in your terms and conditions that you dont touch the electruics, and you didnt do anything other than plug leads into it, then i think you are high and dry.

 

[jo4nny8]

We always get an sparky in to do anything that we either a, think is beyond our capabilities - new circuits etc, or b. we know needs certifying. Basically the only thing our kitchen installer would do is wire new plug faces on (no wiring alterations) or take sockets off to tile (just unscrew) or in extreme circumstances remove a socket to put a cabinet in and then put the socket back inside the cabinet. again without doing any wiring. The odd time we might remove old under cabinet lighting and put new wires into the same spur on the wall which as far as i am aware is classed as maintenance and doesnt need certifying.

Can anyone confirm if the electrician on site is liable as he did some electrics in the kitchen area and it would be nice to be able to go to court with proof from somewehre (wiring regs or something) that shows that he is actually liable and he should have altered them and not us

 

[ian.settle1]

Hi all.

First post and hopefully ive put it in the right location.

I need some help with regard to a legal case i am embroiled in and am trying to find out some information.

Basically my company performed a kitchen installation in a customers house. As part of the installation we installed some new appliances (cooker, extractor, washing machine and dishwasher) All of the appliances plugged in to existing sockets that were already present and we performed NO electrics whatsoever (basically a dry cabinet fit with tiling and worktops etc)

When we removed the kitchen, an electrician who was performing some works on the customers property advised the customer that there were electrics in the kitchen that were not up to current regulations. (basically an old cooker feed in 6mm cable was being used to power 3 sockets in an area around the cooker) The customer then expected us to rectify this problem as the electrician had said they were unsafe.

After explaining to the customer that we had not charged for this and were performing NO electrics within the installation he would have to pay for the remedials required and as such we suggested that this other electrician is best to do the work as he is already on site. The customer agreed and we left it at that.

Now the customer (6 months later) is taking me to court over a few items and the main point is with these electrics and that he now has to have a whole new kitchen (the quote has come from this other electrican) and wants £8000 off me because of this.

My terms and conditions state we wont do electrics and also that if there is extra work we charge for it but im now concerned i should have done the electrics.

As far as im concerned, if a 17th edition electrician says work is required and he is doing electrics on a house, then he is liable for all testing of the circuits and making sure that it conforms to the current regs. Am i right or am i liable???

Can anyone help and thanks for the time
John

Did your customer sign any paperwork accepting your T & C stating that you where not doing any electrics, if they did I would say you don't have to worry but if they have a solicitor he must think they have a case.

Could also be trying it on and get you to pay for the extra electrical work.

 

[telectrix]

agreed. as long as you have stated that you would not do any electrical work, i think you're covered. if the customer let you go ahead believing that the electrical installation was sound, when he knew it wasn't, he's trying to pull a fast one on you, thinking you're a soft target. you need a solicitor on the case, get sloicitor to send a strongly worded letter stating that you will fight him all the way and land him with your costs.

 

[jo4nny8]

oh ive got full legal cover and the customer is doing it themselves. it started off as small claims which they can only claim upto 5K but now theyve decided to go whats called fast track and can get up to 25k. My solicitor says i have a good chance but its still really concerning that this can happen. I had to call the cops 3 times as we were getting abuse and threats from the customer while we were doing the job.

Ive been doing this for over 10 years must have done about 1000 kitchens or bathrooms and ive never had this kind of hassle.

 

[nickblake]

nothing wrong with using an old cooker supply to supply sockets as long as the test resaults are satisfactory , and you are right in saying if an electrician is carrying out work then its his responcabilty to ensure the work he is carrying out is to the current regulations ,but does not nesseserily mean the complete installation is to current regulations , there is a box on a minor works and EIC that states condition of existing installations as long as this is completed with any defects etc then he's covered , and to be honest the one's that should be fully compliant to current regulation are mainly new installations from July 2008

 

[tonys]

Put it this way, if this goes fast track and you do win, it could cost the claimant a lot of money, but on the other hand could cost you a lot of money.

Is your legal cover the type where your given legal advice to start with and they only take it on if your in a very strong position to win ?

 

[jo4nny8]

He is quoting BS7671:2008 as says we should have rectified the electrics to this standard!

Is there anywhere i can get proof that its only installations performed after july 2008 that have to be compliant?

 

[jo4nny8]

Put it this way, of this goes fast track and you do win, it could cost the claimant a lot of money, but on the other hand could cost you a lot of money.

Is your legal cover the type where your given legal advice to start with and they only take it on if your in a very strong position to win ?

i have 50k cover and up to now they are fully fighting it and sending a solicitor to court and i am just a witness. now it is fast track they say they have to make sure i have a 51% chance of winning or they wont cover me

 

[tonys]

i have 50k cover and up to now they are fully fighting it and sending a solicitor to court and i am just a witness. now it is fast track they say they have to make sure i have a 51% chance of winning or they wont cover me

Do they think you have the 51% chance ?

 

[jo4nny8]

yeah but im still concerned as this could send me under.

Is there any sort of legal evidense out there that proves i am not liable?? does it state it in the regs or anything

 

[tonys]

yeah but im still concerned as this could send me under.

Is there any sort of legal evidense out there that proves i am not liable?? does it state it in the regs or anything

You have to look at this from the angle of a consumer, there's plenty of free advice out there for them.

Things likes, could your Terms and Conditions be deemed unfair ?

 

[jo4nny8]

i dont think they are because they only state that we reserve the right to charge for extra works which we find after the installation has started and they have 48 hours to get other quotes.

 

[nickblake]

Its a difficult situaltion for you , But if you didnt carry out any works on the electrics in the kitchen then there should be no problem as your not an electrician ,you cant be expected to know the regs , if you changed the face plates sockets etc then thats a different matter you have altered the installation , but you have said youve not touched the installation so thats your case , if some one else has spotted defects in the installation then its up to them , the only real thing is to check your contract and see if it says no work on the electrical installation then theoretically you should be covered , there are millions of installations that do not comply with current regulations ,and as i have said the only ones that should fully comply are new installations from 2008 , anything prior to that will comply with earlier versions of the regs or not at all , Any work carried out on these installations should comply with the current regs and doesnt nesseserily mean the complete installation should be compliant but the alterations you carry out should , also work in kitchen area's is notifiable under Part P of the building regs

 

[tonys]

As the claimant put their claim together yet and if so it will say what the grounds are ?

 

[chiplard]

IMHO if you didn't quote to alter the electrical installation and your fitters didn't, then you cant be held responsible.

If you quoted to fit a 'kitchen', then you wouldn't be responsible for anything other than fitting a kitchen.

If I gave a quote to rewire a kitchen I certainly wouldn't be responsible for fitting cabinets!!!!

I would however consult a good solicitor as the wording of quotes, estimates, T&Cs etc etc, mean something completely different to us as they would to the legal world!!

 

[nickblake]

take all your paper work in and go and speak to trading standards and see what they say , they may be able to advise you too

 

[tonys]

take all your paper work in and go and speak to trading standards and see what they say , they may be able to advise you too

They do represent/advise business's as far as I know.

 

[bugsy]

I think that as you have only supplied the appliances and only installed the appliances you should be o.k. ( if they went to curry's and bought a washing machine and freezer and they delivered and installed woud he be suing them?)
However if you produced a drawing showing the kitchen layout which included socket outlets etc you may be on a sticky wicket.
Additional they may argue that the installation should have been tested ( they may argue fit for purpose ) and you should shown due diligange and tested everything prior to installation

Difficult situation

 

[i=p/u]

youve done something wrong cause you seem scared.... did you move sockets?????

 

[oldtimer]

OK I have a stab here first of all you need to go back to the "electrician" who was working in another part of the house and then did his Kwik Fit Fitter bit ie sucking air through his teeth trying to spook his customer into getting more work you also need to request from the customer any documentation
pertaining to his complaint from any third party ie the spark who kicked this all off you should also advise the customer that as far as you are concerned
you will be looking for costs. as for 3 sockets being fed from a 6mm cooker circuit this holds no water and the only thing wrong here would be is if the circuit protection is still 30 amps instead of 16 or 20 amps and you were not to know this. One thing though can you confirm that the cooker circuit was supplying 3 twin sockets only and not 3 twin sockets and the cooker and even if it was the customer will have to provide details of who and when this work was done ie a sparky guy from the pub or he did it or a local sparkie company in other words it is not for you to prove you are right it is the customer who needs to prove you were wrong.
I think this guy is a chancer because if it was a car and your job was to put new trim on it then common law says your resposabilty is only for the trim not the dodgy braking system someone else fitted 5 years previously

 

[jo4nny8]

youve done something wrong cause you seem scared.... did you move sockets?????

No not at all

im worried because a customer is taking me to court and you read in the papers all the time about companies getting shafted. what with all the cowboy builder stuff on the telly it automatically makes people think they have a case.

This particular is trying it on and the 'independant' assement she got of the works we carried out are so stupid its unreal, like for example we didnt seal down the inside of cabinets where the base of the cabinet meets the side panels, we didnt fill in the holes in the cabinets inside where the shelf pegs go and we fitted everything second hand. Its a complete joke but it still is worrying the fact that she could go into court, start crying and the judge will fall for it

 

[telectrix]

if you can prove the customer is lying on even 1 small point, then you should win hands down

 

[robsparky1975]

Sounds to me like the customer is pulling a fast one,if your not a qualified electrician then how could you possiibly know,surely a court will see the sense in this,if its in black & white on your quote fit kitchen(not alter sockets,or plumbing or gas pipes)then thats all you have done no more no less,the electrics are his problem.

 

[MFHEng]

He is quoting BS7671:2008 as says we should have rectified the electrics to this standard!

Is there anywhere i can get proof that its only installations performed after july 2008 that have to be compliant?

1. When you say he is quoting BS7671 , what regulation/regulations is he quoting ?
2. When you say you have plugged "everything in", is this a euphamism for wiring the cooker in to an outlet plate or is it connected by a BS1363 plug

 

[saveloy]

Apart from the electrical side, have you been offered an opportunity to rectify the other "defects"? And also were you paid in full for the job on completion?

 

[rodney12]

I'd be interested to know what works the spark was doing on the installation

 

[simpson93]

apart from all the sueing and claiming and what not why dont you call up the customer arrange to meet up show him what he sighned and explain that it isnt your fault.(advise him to come on here and ask for advice)

 

[Paul.M]

Here is a few useful definitions taken from the wiring regs (17th ed).

Appliance, An item of current using equipment. (note not hard wired).

Circuit, An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin. (hard wired installation that you have not changed or altered).

Cold tail, The interface between the fixed installation and a heating unit. (i think it can be used in your case. The cable coming from the cooker to the cooker connector is not classed as part of the fixed installation).

Connector, The part of a cable coupler or of an appliance coupler which........ to be attached to the end of the flexible cable remote from the supply. (the cooker connector that is part if the circuit but you have not altered the circuit by connecting the cooker).

Design current, The magnitude of the current to be carried by the circuit in normal service. (eg you didn't overload the circuit be putting in a higher rated cooker).

Fault, A circuit condition in which current flows through an abnormal or unintended path. (you have not created a fault)

Testing, Implementation if measures to assess an electrical "installation" (you have not installed any circuits, you have just plugged in 2 appliances and connected a cooker).

Instructed person, A person adequately advised or supervised "by skilled persons" to enable him/her to avoid dangers which electricity may create. (you are not a skilled person with the respects of electricity and its not your responsibility).


If I read your posts correctly you have not done anything wrong. A little bit more info on the cooker would be nice, what was the current rating of the old and new cooker? What is the complaint word for word made against you?

Think I speak for most of us on here when I say that we will help you as much as possible to get this CHANCER off your back and so you can continue trading. Good luck and keep us informed.

 

[jo4nny8]

The cooker that we took out was gas and the new one we put in was gas. so too for the hob. The ignitors were plugged in to a socket next to it in a corner base unit and we did the same. The plugs were already attached on all appliances if i remember rightly.

I cant really go into detail for exactly what is being claimed becuase we dont know ourselves. The court paperwork is filled out with her ranting and raving that we damaged her kitchen and supplied everything 2nd hand but she hasnt actually given a proper and true account of what she is claiming for she just wants a refund???

Im only concerned that even though i have done everything above board and tried to resolve the situation they might still give her favour as we had to leave site because she was threatening us and we had to call the police. There was a small amount of grouting to be done and silicone up.

I just wanted to check on the electrics side as im not an expert and her so called expert has insinuated that we are liable and thats why she now wants a refund

 

[malcolmsanford]

If she is indeed a chancer and is trying to blag some sort of payment out of you, then she will withdraw before the court case as your side will advise her that all cost will be incurred by her.

Normally a customer will only take you to court if they feel they have a good chance of winning. As you have posted your relationship with her was not the most cordial, and that part of you having to call the police to her house 3 times is amazing, I have to be honest I would have walked off site at the first call.

What concerns me is the 3rd party electrician. You say he identified that the installation was not up to standards. So what did he recommend to her and you. I'm going along the lines of did he ask you not to fit the kitchen until he had time to rectify the problems. I'm wondering if he did, you went ahead and fitted, and that when he came to work he created merry hell that the kitchen was fitted after him telling you not to, and the only way he could work now was by removing the kitchen.

If this is the case then did he put this to you in writing or was it just a verbal insturction

 

[oldtimer]

Yep Malcolm I agree with you
Old age does not come its self I can smell customers like this a mile away plus it helps when you are not desperate to get the job most customers if you treat them with courtesy and respect give you feedback in kind but yes I have been to jobs where they are like rotwilers when you walk in the door as they have been "bitten" in the past by cowboy Joe and in this situation I either walk away or "forget" to return the call.

 

[SimpleSimon]

Have you had any direct communication?

 

[Paul.M]

Sounds like all he has done is plug in 3 appliances. You have not done any electrical work and therefore not responsible for any of it. The words long walk and short pier come to mind if you have already tried to resolve this.

 

[i=p/u]

ive this all to look forward to someday, it is interesting

 

[telectrix]

ive this all to look forward to someday, it is interesting

why, you decided on a career change to kitchen fitter?

 

[i=p/u]

naw just dealing with asholes , its easy working fr someone else

 

[Paul.M]

Aaren don't think you've read the full thread mate. It's the kitchen fitter that has asked the question. His contract was to replace the kitchen and by doing so he plugged in 3 appliances and the customer wants a full kitchen rewire!

 

[ian.settle1]

Why not call her bluff and say you are going to counter sue her for deframation off character and loss off work from this, she what she does then