Failed PIR on an old church

[SafetyFirst]

A church near me has been tested as unsatisfactory with many recommendations, including 5 grade 1's.

Having not seen any of the installation as yet i've been asked to have a look at the schedules to advise on what work may need doing and if i could carry out any correcting actions to the installation myself.

It's an old church, the estimated age of the electrical installation is 40+ years there has been signs of various alterations/additions.

No previous records of testing were found to compare.

The 5 grade 1's are as follows;

1) Main bonding cable to gas and water is insufficient at only 2.5mm (10mm required) furthermore it is split, recommend seperate cables to each source or unslipt 10mm cable to service both.

2) Lightning conductor has been cut and needs repairing.

The other 3 grade 1's are to do with the circuits via the power board within the church.

1) 2 radial sockets are wired in 1.5mm MICC and protected by a B32 amp breaker.
2) 9 sockets are served on their own ring wired again in 1.5mm MICC again protected by a B32 amp breaker.
3) Heating controls serving 9 points are wired with a mixture of MICC and pvc cabling protected by a B20 amp breaker.

All above circuits are proteced by overrated fuses and their recommendation is to lower the fuse ratings to suffice.

I know MICC is the best type of cable for longevity out there and looking at the IR testing it could stay around for many years to come however a ring wired in 1.5mm. Surely that needs upgrading to at least 2.5mm? the radial with just 2 points should be ok in 1.5mm but needs a 16/20amp breaker rather than a 32amp thats currently protecting it, (bare in mind this is without looking at the job). As for the heating controls i wouldn't like to guess untill i look at the job but can't imagine it pulling anywhere near 20amps.

The church in size isn't all that great, somewhere in the region of 50m by 20m.

There's other lesser recommendations such as DB chart needs updating, cables need clipping etc.

I obviously need to view the job myself but seems to me like a lot of work needs doing to make this church anywhere near to todays standards.

Anyone out there who've tested and corrected any similar installations and any advice on the grade 1's above please?

 

[lamb]

Ring final 32A in 2l1.5 MI cable was a standard final circuit in the 16th edition IIRC

 

[Engineer54]

You don't say what earthing system is provided at this church, it could well be TT, but you will still need to upgrade the bonding conductors to 10mm. The cut lightning protection down conductor will certainly need repairing, and will need the correct type of flat bar connectors being used too.

Knowing MICC cable as i do, i'd be quite happy leaving the 1.5mm MICC cables on a 32A breaker, however if we are going by the Reg's just reduce the breakers to 25A.

 

[Engineer54]

Ring final 32A in 2l1.5 MI cable was a standard final circuit in the 16th edition IIRC

Indeed it was!! lol!! It is more than capable of looking after a ring circuit with a 32A MCB protective device. ...lol!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

A church near me has been tested as unsatisfactory with many recommendations, including 5 grade 1's.

Having not seen any of the installation as yet i've been asked to have a look at the schedules to advise on what work may need doing and if i could carry out any correcting actions to the installation myself.

It's an old church, the estimated age of the electrical installation is 40+ years there has been signs of various alterations/additions.

No previous records of testing were found to compare.

The 5 grade 1's are as follows;

1) Main bonding cable to gas and water is insufficient at only 2.5mm (10mm required) furthermore it is split, recommend seperate cables to each source or unslipt 10mm cable to service both. Code 1/2 more inclined for me to be a 2 as none at all would be a 1, but agree on this one needs remedial

2) Lightning conductor has been cut and needs repairing. Lightning systems should really not be included on an EICR, these should be tested similar to fire systems and come under BS EN 62305. If it is disconnected from the MET then rather than quoting for remedial work, I would suggest having the system overhauled by a company that specializes in it.

The other 3 grade 1's are to do with the circuits via the power board within the church.

1) 2 radial sockets are wired in 1.5mm MICC and protected by a B32 amp breaker. Never noticed you said Radial, MICC clipped is rated 28amps so technically yes you could code that a 2 so have to give him that one
2) 9 sockets are served on their own ring wired again in 1.5mm MICC again protected by a B32 amp breaker.Seems the moron is still coding
3) Heating controls serving 9 points are wired with a mixture of MICC and pvc cabling protected by a B20 amp breaker. At the least the moron is consistent. Why was this coded, mixture of cables, was the jointing not done as per spec?

All above circuits are proteced by overrated fuses and their recommendation is to lower the fuse ratings to suffice.

I know MICC is the best type of cable for longevity out there and looking at the IR testing it could stay around for many years to come however a ring wired in 1.5mm. Surely that needs upgrading to at least 2.5mm? the radial with just 2 points should be ok in 1.5mm but needs a 16/20amp breaker rather than a 32amp thats currently protecting it, (bare in mind this is without looking at the job). As for the heating controls i wouldn't like to guess untill i look at the job but can't imagine it pulling anywhere near 20amps.

The church in size isn't all that great, somewhere in the region of 50m by 20m.

There's other lesser recommendations such as DB chart needs updating, cables need clipping etc.

I obviously need to view the job myself but seems to me like a lot of work needs doing to make this church anywhere near to todays standards.

Anyone out there who've tested and corrected any similar installations and any advice on the grade 1's above please?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I take it that the supply is TN-C-S, if the recommend 10mm² for bonding?
Lightning protection falls outside of the scope of BS7671, apart from the requirement for main bonding.
The Radial wired in MICC should be on a 20A breaker.
I would not consider any of the above to warrent a code 1. Code 2 would be my opinion.
What is the CSA of the PVC cables for the heating controls, what are the controls rated at and is there any in line fuses?
Cannot comment without further information.
As for the RFC being wired in 1.5mm² MICC and being protected by a 32A breaker, there should be no code, as it complies.

 

[ipf]

Total agreement with previous posts. Might be interesting to see schedule of test results though. I bet there's no problems with the pyros. And they will certainly blend in with the surroundings better than any other system.

 

[Richard Burns]

I take it that the supply is TN-C-S, if the recommend 10mm² for bonding?
Lightning protection falls outside of the scope of BS7671, apart from the requirement for main bonding.
The Radial wired in MICC should be on a 20A breaker.
I would not consider any of the above to warrent a code 1. Code 2 would be my opinion.
What is the CSA of the PVC cables for the heating controls, what are the controls rated at and is there any in line fuses?
Cannot comment without further information.
As for the RFC being wired in 1.5mm² MICC and being protected by a 32A breaker, there should be no code, as it complies.

Says it all really.
Muppet coding, some problems, not difficult to fix, some more information required once on site.

 

[yellowvanman]

You don't say what earthing system is provided at this church, it could well be TT, but you will still need to upgrade the bonding conductors to 10mm.

IF TT, bonding conductors should be at least half size of main earth (actual or calculated by adiabatic) with minimum of 6mm.

 

[Engineer54]

IF TT, bonding conductors should be at least half size of main earth (actual or calculated by adiabatic) with minimum of 6mm.

The point i was making, if he needs to change these existing 2.5mm, then he might as well change them to 10mm. Who knows what the next generation of bonding regulations might be...lol!! And if it is a TT installation, it could always be PME'd at a future date....

 

[needasparks]

I've never seen gas in a church before, but then i've never seen a church not have recomendations if a test has been done. I don't see a major problem with having the 1.5 micc as you would be hard pushed to find an old church without it so a lot of common sense needs to be used when testing one. In saying that, it does appear the tester was a bit OTT with his/her codes.
Its not like there will be overloading issues in this type of building, so fault protection would be higher on my list of observations.
But then we have not seen the building.

 

[SafetyFirst]

Thanks for the replies folks, sorry i only gave the schedules a quick run over before i came on here and been out most the day i'll post a little more info now about the system.

It's a TN-S arrangement, 3phase supply.

The church has 3 seperate DB's;

1) Power DB
2) Sacristy DB
3) Lighting DB

All seperately sub mained from a DB (lighting/power) from another property next door (great)!

i could scan the results in if only i knew how, would be easier for me rather than typing it all out to yers.

 

[Engineer54]

Thanks for the replies folks, sorry i only gave the schedules a quick run over before i came on here and been out most the day i'll post a little more info now about the system.

It's a TN-S arrangement, 3phase supply.

The church has 3 seperate DB's;

1) Power DB
2) Sacristy DB
3) Lighting DB

All seperately sub mained from a DB (lighting/power) from another property next door (great)!

i could scan the results in if only i knew how, would be easier for me rather than typing it all out to yers.

I take it that by Sacristy, you mean the room area where the vicar puts on his full gown attire etc!!

 

[SafetyFirst]

It will be yes, only has 3 ccts on a 4way DB.

I'm only going off how the schedule results read.

 

[UNG]

I take it that by Sacristy, you mean the room area where the vicar puts on his full gown attire etc!!

It's the RC version of the Vestry


Whoever did this PIR appears to exude inexperience IMO my only other thought is his scheme is rewire the socket ring in PVC/PVC or Hi Tuf cable and weigh the 1.5 Pyro in
Why is it there seems to be a thing with some people that if an installation isn't up to the latest regs then it's unsafe

 

[Knobhead]

Sacrity to be correct.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

It's the RC version of the Vestry


Whoever did this PIR appears to exude inexperience IMO my only other thought is his scheme is rewire the socket ring in PVC/PVC or Hi Tuf cable and weigh the 1.5 Pyro in
Why is it there seems to be a thing with some people that if an installation isn't up to the latest regs then it's unsafe

As a result of mediocrity & ineptitude.

 

[Mr.Si]

Or, he's not done much with MICC / old churches before and is therefore un-familiar with such situations.

In terms of "knowing" the older regs and stuff, that has to obviously come with years on the job and experiencing different situations as newer courses probably don't teach the older regs.

So if you aren't familiar, ask those who might (forums are geat for that (and risk getting flamed for not knowing)).

 

[SPARTYKUS]

True Mr Si, but this person probably didn't ask advice and just made it up.

Or if he asked advice the advice given was incorrect. Maybe.

 

[UNG]

Or, he's not done much with MICC / old churches before and is therefore un-familiar with such situations.

In terms of "knowing" the older regs and stuff, that has to obviously come with years on the job and experiencing different situations as newer courses probably don't teach the older regs.

So if you aren't familiar, ask those who might (forums are geat for that (and risk getting flamed for not knowing)).

The trouble is the teaching these days seems to be old is bad new is good.

And if it don't comply with current regs then it is wrong and needs replacing

No mention is made these days that at the time of installation it complied with XX edition of the regs it 17th or nothing

Beginning to wonder will someone code a 17th edition installation because it doesn't comply with amendment 1