general rant....ish

[mechelec]

Is there not a requirement in BS7671 to follow manufacturers instructions? ?

 

[malcolmsanford]

There certainly is and in my mind must be the most unhelpful regulation introduced over the last few years.

As most of our equipment is now being built and manufactured in the Far East and is supplied for global use where it is unlikely we will have the same criteria as say in America or Australia, often these instructions are written not taking into account the difference standards.

I've installed here a month ago several printers for an office and the "Global" instructions was that these units be installed with an Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker. So apart from

a) Chances are you wouldn't need to install them on an RCD at all in the UK, under our regulations, it would seem somewhere in the world you do need to

b) Do you use an RCD or an ELCB. Yes they are technically one of the same thing, unless you can still buy voltage operated units again somewhere in the world .

 

[mechelec]

Agreed Malc it is hard to have faith in manufacturers instructions when they are written in pigeon English. Sometimes you just have to make an engineering decision and do what you as a experienced electrician feel is right.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

There certainly is and in my mind must be the most unhelpful regulation introduced over the last few years.

QUOTE]

Oh how much do I agree with that comment, biggest hassle I have is with domestic extractor fans. If the manufacturer wants it protected by a bloody 3A fuse why the the hell don't they install one in their fan!!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr

 

[malcolmsanford]

T that is an even better example.

Ok we know that the Sunday DIY'er would most likely fit a bathroom fan to the hot side of a nuclear reactor for the want of not knowing better, but we have had countless pages of discussion on here from guys

"I have just fitted a new fan in the bathroom, it is on a 5amp MCB and is RCD protected but the manufacturers say we must also now fit a 3amp fuse do I have to go by the manufacturers instructions?"

And every answer is yes .......blah blah blah

As if by fitting that 3 amp BS 1362 it supersedes and betters the protection already there .......................

I need a lie down ......................this dumbing down of my industry is just sad

 

[Richard Burns]

As most of our equipment is now being built and manufactured in the Far East and is supplied for global use where it is unlikely we will have the same criteria as say in America or Australia, often these instructions are written not taking into account the difference standards.

I agree so much, I have just installed a tumble dryer made in USA, clear safety label on the back saying how to connect the two phases and how the neutral is grounded to the earth in the machine!
Luckily it was UK modded and the label did not apply, but I didn't follow the instructions!
Also the manufacturers sometimes specify almost impossible items just so they can say "you didn't follow the instructions, its not covered"

 

[Guitarist]

I agree so much, I have just installed a tumble dryer made in USA, clear safety label on the back saying how to connect the two phases and how the neutral is grounded to the earth in the machine!
Luckily it was UK modded and the label did not apply, but I didn't follow the instructions!
Also the manufacturers sometimes specify almost impossible items just so they can say "you didn't follow the instructions, its not covered"

That is so true mate, and something which should be outlawed. I think if we all started reporting this to trading standards then something just might get done about it.

 

[Dave 85]

firstly , good evening all, the weekend is here at long last. I am fairly new to this forum, so if i have posted this in the wrong place , then please accept my appologies.
I have a few things to say, a few things to ask, so please be patient and i shall try to be brief, but you may have to get comfy.
I read nearly all the posts etc on this forum and find them a great source of information, if i encounter a problem i look to see if anyone has posted anything that may help, in the process i often find solutions to problems that i have not encountered but may do one day, and as they say forewarned is forarmed . I also occasionally laugh out loud to some great stories and have to then explain to my family exactly what is that has tickled me. I am grateful to all those that post , and those that reply,and have the utmost respect in knowing they have worked extremely hard to get there qualifications and share there knowledge with us all.Thankyou.
BUT I AM A KITCHEN FITTER, No, iI am not part "pee" registered, as some of us have the common sense to know that part p is part of the building regs and not a qualification. I am registered with napit on there competent persons scheme. No , i am not a Electrical Trainee, i am actually a 1ww , as the full scope course i took lasted .....yes a whole week !!! Admittedly you wouldnt give some of the people on the course a fisher price screwdriver, let alone a test meter.This does NOT in any way make me an electrician , electrical installer or any other fancy name that some of my colleagues may give themselves. I have been a fitter for about 20 odd years, and, take a great deal of pride in my job and carry out every aspect of it to the best of my ability and to whatever rules or regulations that may be relevant to each part of the the job. I took the full scope course as i wanted to make sure that anything i did i did in the correct way according to regs , and most importantly safely, not just for me but the customer too. Therefore i do find it a bit sad that we seem to be reffered to in a bit of a jokey way, and put down with the references to Electrical Trainee and part pee. Yes , i agree as said earlier that some shouldnt put a plug in a socket let alone install wiring etc. But , also having said that i totally understand that as time served and qualified people your trade is being eroded , whether by our european friends working for five pounds and a pot noodle per day, or by schemes etc where for five hundred quid or so anyone can be "qualified "to do your job (not)
As i said before , and i will repeat, i respect your hard work , and the help i and others get from you, and again thankyou, and long may this forum be here for all to see and use.
That is my something to say out of the way, now for my question(s),
I have, since tuesday been fitting a kitchen, worth about 23k. i got to installing the appliances yesterday ,integrated fridge, washing machine, 3.6k microwave, 3.65k single oven/grill, inductioin hob and dishwasher. When i looked at how the connections were to be made i was a bit miffed to say the least. The connections for the washmachine, fridge and oven and hob were all by means of a fixed cooker outlet plates, and the microwave by means of a 13 amp switched socket. But no sign of any of isolating switches anywhere in the kitchen. So, i speak to the customer who phoned the builder, who happens to be a relative and he tells me " dont worry about switches , as all the apppliances are run on there own radial circuits directly into c.u via rcbo's as it saves pulling the appliances out to change the fuse if anything were to go wrong with them". (The cu is in the basement). i knew this was wrong , but left it till i got home last night. I then used the forum to look up relevant questions on isolating cookers etc and found references to regs etc. I called the guy that i get my work from and informed him that i would not be connecting appliances as the arrangement for isolation did not conform to regs, and that the oven , hob and microwave should have a means of isolation a maximum of 2 mtrs away, and that other appliances should be able to be isolated by means of switched fused spur, either wall mounted or if not possible in the front of the nearest cupboard .This morning i rang tech at napit and explained situation, and was told the arrangement was not suitable, didnt meet regs, or indeed manufacturers guidance, and that i had done the right thing in not connecting them.
I compiled e-mail stating regs and BS numbers relating to appropriate isolating switches and sent copy to kitchen company .I also explained to customer why i would not be making connections.This evening the builder and electrician turned up and we had words, I told them both that i wasnt preparedpto carry out the connection , and the reasons why. the electrician then informed me that he had done the job like this as the customer did not want any switches on show, and that he had fitted them in the basement next to cu. i said it did not conform to regs, and was basically talked over and ignored as if idid not know what i was talking about and got the distinct impreession the customer was not impressed . His actual words were , if you need to isolated anything all you have to do is walk down to the cellar and turn the relevant switch off??? Also he siad he is prepared to certify the job. Now i am left feeling let down, and bit pi@@ed off to say the least, i want to know what you think as i value your opinions, and what if anything i sould do. I m sorry this has been a megga post but hope you understand, and look forward to any replies

My advice would be...you worry about fitting the kitchens, let the electrician worry about wiring them. Its his name on the paperwork.

If I had a kitchen fitter start kicking up a fuss, questioning my methods and bringing into question my competence in front of the builder and client, well, I wouldn't be best pleased.
Especially, as it turns out, he has not actually deviated from any regulations and by the sounds of it has provided a good quality install (individual RCBO'd circs) tailored to the clients requirements.
Just remember, he has been learning how to interpret the regulations for years, you have learnt for a week.

 

[Guest55]

^^^^No mincing of words in Dave's post lol.

 

[Dave 85]

^^^^No mincing of words in Dave's post lol.

You know I've no time for busybodies and jobsworths Biff

 

[Guitarist]

Dave, I can understand where you are coming from mate. What I am quite impressed about though, is that the OP recognises that although he is by his own admission "no electrician", he felt uncomfortable connecting appliances without local isolation and made the decision to get the electrician who installed the system to take ownership of it.
Personally, I wish more kitchen fitters would be this conscientious and while I'm sure the electrician who did it was annoyed that he had been questioned about his design, I can't fault the OP for refusing to connect what he wasn't sure about.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

So, has the fridge etc, got a 13amp fuse? and if not would you consider it ok on a 16amp MCB?

 

[Guest55]

So, has the fridge etc, got a 13amp fuse? and if not would you consider it ok on a 16amp MCB?

This point highights a small problem in the original post and that is cooker outlets are being used as the connection point to each appliance ?
Should have just used standard sockets which would retain the correct sized fuse , then theres no prob in running direct feeds from the CU.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

This point highights a small problem in the original post and that is cooker outlets are being used as the connection point to each appliance ?
Should have just used standard sockets which would retain the correct sized fuse , then theres no prob in running direct feeds from the CU.

The electrician will probably say that there wasn't enough room behind for plug tops, in which case, why the hell didn't he install FCU's or sockets in the cupboards. (we're going round in circles now)
For what it's worth, I wouldn't put a socket behind a kitchen appliance anyway, nightmare if the fuse blows.

 

[Geordie Spark]

The electrician will probably say that there wasn't enough room behind for plug tops, in which case, why the hell didn't he install FCU's or sockets in the cupboards. (we're going round in circles now)
For what it's worth, I wouldn't put a socket behind a kitchen appliance anyway, nightmare if the fuse blows.

Some time ago, our next door neighbour's tumble dryer caught fire & the only means of isolating it were: 1) at the socket which was behind it & 2) at the consumer unit.

The lady didn't think of turning off the main switch at the consumer unit, & instead called the fire brigade. By the time they arrived, the kitchen was destroyed & I can't help wondering if there was a local, easily accessible means of isolation would she have had the presence of mind to use it & therefore reduce the damage to her kitchen?

It was because of this that I always fitted either a FCU or some other means of isolation on my jobs, and if the customer was a bit "iffy" about it, I would tell them about my neighbour's tumble dryer. They usually agreed after that !!

 

[Strima]

A lot of this is speculation in case of an emergency. You could get to the point of installing a firemans switch for all the kitchen circuits 'just in case'...

As with any regs and installation common sense should apply but often it isn't the case as £25K on a gucci kitchen far outweighs a couple of hundred quid on sorting the electrickery properly.

 

[Engineer54]

These numbty's that don't want to see socket outlets or other appliance control/isolation switches etc above the worktop, in there kitchens soon live to sorely regret there decision. These fashion conscious idiots that spend literary thousands on a kitchen, seem to always fail to see that a kitchen is primarily a work station, not just a room to impress family, friends and neighbours!!

So now, every time they buy the latest electrical gadget, they have nowhere to power it unless they open a cupboard door, that not only spoils the look of their kitchen (that they wanted in the first place), but the trailing lead(s) now becomes a trip and/or catching safety hazard!!

Pop-up worktop outlets i hear you all cry, ...These things are usually of such bad quality and design that after just a few months the pop-up starts failing and any seal that was there to stop liquids passing is also starting to let liquids past the worktop seal, ...open or closed!!

Now, how many socket outlets are we recommended to be fitted to an average sized kitchen?? ...There needed for a reason!! ...lol!!

I have never and will never install worktop appliance outlets in base or wall cabinets, or a cooker control unit. Then again i don't blindly follow BS7671/OSG's either!! lol!!

 

[Guitarist]

So, has the fridge etc, got a 13amp fuse? and if not would you consider it ok on a 16amp MCB?

If the appliance states it must have a 13 amp fuse, and the only protection is via a 16 amp MCB, then straight away there is a breach of the regs. Regardless of what we think, and regardless of whether we consider it safe or not, manufacturers instructions must be followed.

 

[telectrix]

If the appliance states it must have a 13 amp fuse, and the only protection is via a 16 amp MCB, then straight away there is a breach of the regs. Regardless of what we think, and regardless of whether we consider it safe or not, manufacturers instructions must be followed.

by breach of regs. do you mean lack of discrimination between the 13A fuse and the 16A MCB?

 

[Guitarist]

by breach of regs. do you mean lack of discrimination between the 13A fuse and the 16A MCB?

No, I mean if the plug is cut off and the cable connected directly to a fixed appliance outlet, relying on the MCB for protection of both the cable and the appliance.

 

[telectrix]

surely, if you were to cut off the plug you would connect to a FCU, not to an unfused outlet.

 

[Guest55]

surely, if you were to cut off the plug you would connect to a FCU, not to an unfused outlet.

Hence my comment in post #63.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

op says they are all connected via "fixed cooker outlet plates" ?!?

 

[Engineer54]

As Malcolm has posited out, as have i on several occasions, appliances originating from overseas will often have blanket requirements that bear no resemblance to BS7671, Especially where they call for a dedicated 16A supply, as they are basically referring to the usual European/USA radial type circuits, and not to the UK's RFC for arguments sake!! The better manufactures instructions will come with a paragraph directing you to your countries electrical codes or regulations.

Don't Blindly follow manufactures instructions especially where cooking appliances are involved, they can completely mislead you as to what is or isn't needed... Really, you should know what is and what isn't acceptable....

And NO cutting a molded plug off an appliance and connecting the cable to another BS7671 approved/recognised accessory will ''NOT'' void any manufactures warranty or Guarantee, no matter what you have heard elsewhere... lol!!

 

[Guitarist]

surely, if you were to cut off the plug you would connect to a FCU, not to an unfused outlet.

Exactly my point tel!!! The OP was not happy to connect the appliances because he was told to connect them to unfused connection plates and he refused to do so.
He was asking if there were regs for him to present to the electrician and builder who have told him that the RCBO in the CU is adequate protection and isolation.
I was merely repeating what had been said about having to follow manufacturers instructions regarding fusing to comply with the regs.

I hope that makes sense to everyone as I don't want to type it all out again

 

[telectrix]

got you. i'd forgotten about the OP's bit about the unfused cooker connection units. it was a few hours ago that i first read the OP. and that's way above my 3 minute attention span. at the time i agreed with his refusal to connect.

 

[Des 56]

Here is a paragraph from the On site guide

Permanently connected equipment
Equipment should be locally protected by a fuse of rating not exceeding 13 amp or by a circuit breaker of rating not exceeding 16amp
and should be controlled by a switch where needed
A separate switch is not required if the circuit breaker is to be used as a switch

The above comes from the section headed Final circuits using socket outlets complying with blah blah



The whole section seems to trip over itself with clarity

 

[Guitarist]

Here is a paragraph from the On site guide

Permanently connected equipment
Equipment should be locally protected by a fuse of rating not exceeding 13 amp or by a circuit breaker of rating not exceeding 16amp
and should be controlled by a switch where needed
A separate switch is not required if the circuit breaker is to be used as a switch

The above comes from the section headed Final circuits using socket outlets complying with blah blah



The whole section seems to trip over itself with clarity

The point a few of us were making is that "Manufacturers instructions" overrules that. If an appliance states that "must be protected by a 13 amp fuse", then that is what you have to do.

 

[Des 56]

The point a few of us were making is that "Manufacturers instructions" overrules that. If an appliance states that "must be protected by a 13 amp fuse", then that is what you have to do.

Sorry to confuse the flow of the thread
The post above is correct and I agree entirely with the comment and have not made argument against the advise

My reply was to the kitchen fitter where he replied to my own question to him "Have you read the section on fixed appliances"

"not as yet des, that will now be my light read material for bed time".




​

 

[Guitarist]

Sorry Des, I misunderstood your point

 

[stanleyblade]

thanx for all the replies, sorry i not answer earlier but my weekend off turned into working , great!! To clear a few things up, the fridge was fitted with moulded 13 amp plug as was the washing machine. The microwave and oven were supplied with cable. all are integrated appliances. the connection in place for fridge was fixed cooker outlet plate as were the washing machine and oven. The connection for the microwave was to be via 13a socket.
However, the manufacturers instructions for the oven and microwave stated "an all pole isolating switch with at least a 3mm contact gap must be available for the installation" These were not availabe, and neither were any fused outlets. This was my main reason for not connecting them up,i was concerned that there was no way to safely isolate the appliances within the kitchen,. i rang the manufacturer and was told that if the plugs were removed and wired directly to cu then if a fault occurred the warranty may be void. I also rang napit tech and explained to them , and was told i was right not to connect them.
At no point was i being a jobsworth or a busybody as someone commented earlier(i wonder what he would of called me had i connected them up without questiion and caused damage,,,, or god forbid someones death?) I had words with the customer and the electrician,as i stated earlier i would rather do the wrong thing for the right reason than just get stuck in, something we fitters get a good slagging off for. in fact he had to change the cabling and outlet for the microwave because it was wrong . I spoke to customer again yesterday as i had to go there instead of having the day off, and again explained to him why i did not want to connect the units, and will also speak to the electrician to apologise if i need to because at no time was i questioning his professional integrity, just explaining my reasons as to why i did not feel comfortable in doing so . I dont feel that i deserve the condescending pat on the head and you fit the kitchen let us do the electric type comment, as i am responsible for connectin appliances and leaving the job in a safe to use condition i either do it right or not at all . I do take on board all comments, good or bad as we learn a lot by our mistakes, and thank you all again for the time spent replying.

 

[Guitarist]

Personally, considering that you were being asked to contravene the regs by not following manufacturers instructions, I think you did the right thing (though I know the electrician wouldn't agree). Always better to be safe than sorry with electrics.

 

[Dave 85]

thanx for all the replies, sorry i not answer earlier but my weekend off turned into working , great!! To clear a few things up, the fridge was fitted with moulded 13 amp plug as was the washing machine. The microwave and oven were supplied with cable. all are integrated appliances. the connection in place for fridge was fixed cooker outlet plate as were the washing machine and oven. The connection for the microwave was to be via 13a socket.
However, the manufacturers instructions for the oven and microwave stated "an all pole isolating switch with at least a 3mm contact gap must be available for the installation" These were not availabe, and neither were any fused outlets. This was my main reason for not connecting them up,i was concerned that there was no way to safely isolate the appliances within the kitchen,. i rang the manufacturer and was told that if the plugs were removed and wired directly to cu then if a fault occurred the warranty may be void. I also rang napit tech and explained to them , and was told i was right not to connect them.
At no point was i being a jobsworth or a busybody as someone commented earlier(i wonder what he would of called me had i connected them up without questiion and caused damage,,,, or god forbid someones death?) I had words with the customer and the electrician,as i stated earlier i would rather do the wrong thing for the right reason than just get stuck in, something we fitters get a good slagging off for. in fact he had to change the cabling and outlet for the microwave because it was wrong . I spoke to customer again yesterday as i had to go there instead of having the day off, and again explained to him why i did not want to connect the units, and will also speak to the electrician to apologise if i need to because at no time was i questioning his professional integrity, just explaining my reasons as to why i did not feel comfortable in doing so . I dont feel that i deserve the condescending pat on the head and you fit the kitchen let us do the electric type comment, as i am responsible for connectin appliances and leaving the job in a safe to use condition i either do it right or not at all . I do take on board all comments, good or bad as we learn a lot by our mistakes, and thank you all again for the time spent replying.

Sorry for implying you were a jobsworth/busybody a bit harsh in hindsight. Having read your last post it sounds like you wern't being particularly unreasoanble. Wiring something like a fridge straight into a flex outlet with no switch is pretty rough.
Personally I put all my sockets/fused spurs/isolators in accessable cupboards near the appliance. Some will argue that you shouldn't do this but I think its the best way.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Sorry for implying you were a jobsworth/busybody a bit harsh in hindsight. Having read your last post it sounds like you wern't being particularly unreasoanble. Wiring something like a fridge straight into a flex outlet with no switch is pretty rough.
Personally I put all my sockets/fused spurs/isolators in accessable cupboards near the appliance. Some will argue that you shouldn't do this but I think its the best way.

This now be an argument of the past when referring to regulation 530.4.2 on how we fit equipment.

This was the reg often quoted with the term " and fixed to the fabric of the building" when arguing whether or not you classed a kitchen cupboard as part of the building fabric, this quote as now been deleted from the above reg and as far as the BS 7671-2008 anywhere is fair game when fixing such equipment.

Of course Accessibility, workmanship etc will still I'm sure be part of an argument

 

[AndyL]

As a domestic cooker would not fall under the scope of BS EN 60204, therefore the regs you quote are for emergency switching and not applicable in this case

These normally fall under the umbrella of Standards , BS EN 50304:2009+A1:2010, BS EN 60350:2009

Those regs are not for BS EN 60204, 537.4.1 specifically says so, they also go on to say that if the switch is for emergency switching it should preferably be coloured red, which is my understanding as to why most cooker switches are red

 

[malcolmsanford]

Well a cooker switch may be red, except of course some chrome models which are not, but I have never seen many that are actually marked "Emergency stop" or with a sign underneath it that indicates it is an emergency stop as in regulation 537.4.2.7 requires

And as a Kitchen switch can not either be latched/restrained in the "off" position, and in a domestic situation you can not afford the situation of "under control of the same person" the same as with "under the supervision" with regards to socket outlets, I have a feeling your arguments about domestic cooker switches being "Emergency" is a little flimsy.

 

[RISElectrical]

From a purely regulatory way of thinking, having the switching for the kitchen appliances in the basement is not against any regulations as far as I am aware. Suggesting a domestic cooker needs emergency switching is ludicrous IMO

As has been said somewhere before on this thread. If the cooker were to burst into flames then the last place I would want to go to isolate it would be within 2 meters and usually the cooker isolator is within 500mm. If this was the recommended place for an emergency stop then I would be thinking thats a stupid place and should in fact like many emergency switching items (gas shut offs etc) be ideally situated along the escape route.