general rant....ish

[Guitarist]

Dave, I can understand where you are coming from mate. What I am quite impressed about though, is that the OP recognises that although he is by his own admission "no electrician", he felt uncomfortable connecting appliances without local isolation and made the decision to get the electrician who installed the system to take ownership of it.
Personally, I wish more kitchen fitters would be this conscientious and while I'm sure the electrician who did it was annoyed that he had been questioned about his design, I can't fault the OP for refusing to connect what he wasn't sure about.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

So, has the fridge etc, got a 13amp fuse? and if not would you consider it ok on a 16amp MCB?

 

[Guest55]

So, has the fridge etc, got a 13amp fuse? and if not would you consider it ok on a 16amp MCB?

This point highights a small problem in the original post and that is cooker outlets are being used as the connection point to each appliance ?
Should have just used standard sockets which would retain the correct sized fuse , then theres no prob in running direct feeds from the CU.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

This point highights a small problem in the original post and that is cooker outlets are being used as the connection point to each appliance ?
Should have just used standard sockets which would retain the correct sized fuse , then theres no prob in running direct feeds from the CU.

The electrician will probably say that there wasn't enough room behind for plug tops, in which case, why the hell didn't he install FCU's or sockets in the cupboards. (we're going round in circles now)
For what it's worth, I wouldn't put a socket behind a kitchen appliance anyway, nightmare if the fuse blows.

 

[Geordie Spark]

The electrician will probably say that there wasn't enough room behind for plug tops, in which case, why the hell didn't he install FCU's or sockets in the cupboards. (we're going round in circles now)
For what it's worth, I wouldn't put a socket behind a kitchen appliance anyway, nightmare if the fuse blows.

Some time ago, our next door neighbour's tumble dryer caught fire & the only means of isolating it were: 1) at the socket which was behind it & 2) at the consumer unit.

The lady didn't think of turning off the main switch at the consumer unit, & instead called the fire brigade. By the time they arrived, the kitchen was destroyed & I can't help wondering if there was a local, easily accessible means of isolation would she have had the presence of mind to use it & therefore reduce the damage to her kitchen?

It was because of this that I always fitted either a FCU or some other means of isolation on my jobs, and if the customer was a bit "iffy" about it, I would tell them about my neighbour's tumble dryer. They usually agreed after that !!

 

[Strima]

A lot of this is speculation in case of an emergency. You could get to the point of installing a firemans switch for all the kitchen circuits 'just in case'...

As with any regs and installation common sense should apply but often it isn't the case as £25K on a gucci kitchen far outweighs a couple of hundred quid on sorting the electrickery properly.

 

[Engineer54]

These numbty's that don't want to see socket outlets or other appliance control/isolation switches etc above the worktop, in there kitchens soon live to sorely regret there decision. These fashion conscious idiots that spend literary thousands on a kitchen, seem to always fail to see that a kitchen is primarily a work station, not just a room to impress family, friends and neighbours!!

So now, every time they buy the latest electrical gadget, they have nowhere to power it unless they open a cupboard door, that not only spoils the look of their kitchen (that they wanted in the first place), but the trailing lead(s) now becomes a trip and/or catching safety hazard!!

Pop-up worktop outlets i hear you all cry, ...These things are usually of such bad quality and design that after just a few months the pop-up starts failing and any seal that was there to stop liquids passing is also starting to let liquids past the worktop seal, ...open or closed!!

Now, how many socket outlets are we recommended to be fitted to an average sized kitchen?? ...There needed for a reason!! ...lol!!

I have never and will never install worktop appliance outlets in base or wall cabinets, or a cooker control unit. Then again i don't blindly follow BS7671/OSG's either!! lol!!

 

[Guitarist]

So, has the fridge etc, got a 13amp fuse? and if not would you consider it ok on a 16amp MCB?

If the appliance states it must have a 13 amp fuse, and the only protection is via a 16 amp MCB, then straight away there is a breach of the regs. Regardless of what we think, and regardless of whether we consider it safe or not, manufacturers instructions must be followed.

 

[telectrix]

If the appliance states it must have a 13 amp fuse, and the only protection is via a 16 amp MCB, then straight away there is a breach of the regs. Regardless of what we think, and regardless of whether we consider it safe or not, manufacturers instructions must be followed.

by breach of regs. do you mean lack of discrimination between the 13A fuse and the 16A MCB?

 

[Guitarist]

by breach of regs. do you mean lack of discrimination between the 13A fuse and the 16A MCB?

No, I mean if the plug is cut off and the cable connected directly to a fixed appliance outlet, relying on the MCB for protection of both the cable and the appliance.

 

[telectrix]

surely, if you were to cut off the plug you would connect to a FCU, not to an unfused outlet.

 

[Guest55]

surely, if you were to cut off the plug you would connect to a FCU, not to an unfused outlet.

Hence my comment in post #63.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

op says they are all connected via "fixed cooker outlet plates" ?!?

 

[Engineer54]

As Malcolm has posited out, as have i on several occasions, appliances originating from overseas will often have blanket requirements that bear no resemblance to BS7671, Especially where they call for a dedicated 16A supply, as they are basically referring to the usual European/USA radial type circuits, and not to the UK's RFC for arguments sake!! The better manufactures instructions will come with a paragraph directing you to your countries electrical codes or regulations.

Don't Blindly follow manufactures instructions especially where cooking appliances are involved, they can completely mislead you as to what is or isn't needed... Really, you should know what is and what isn't acceptable....

And NO cutting a molded plug off an appliance and connecting the cable to another BS7671 approved/recognised accessory will ''NOT'' void any manufactures warranty or Guarantee, no matter what you have heard elsewhere... lol!!

 

[Guitarist]

surely, if you were to cut off the plug you would connect to a FCU, not to an unfused outlet.

Exactly my point tel!!! The OP was not happy to connect the appliances because he was told to connect them to unfused connection plates and he refused to do so.
He was asking if there were regs for him to present to the electrician and builder who have told him that the RCBO in the CU is adequate protection and isolation.
I was merely repeating what had been said about having to follow manufacturers instructions regarding fusing to comply with the regs.

I hope that makes sense to everyone as I don't want to type it all out again

 

[telectrix]

got you. i'd forgotten about the OP's bit about the unfused cooker connection units. it was a few hours ago that i first read the OP. and that's way above my 3 minute attention span. at the time i agreed with his refusal to connect.

 

[Des 56]

Here is a paragraph from the On site guide

Permanently connected equipment
Equipment should be locally protected by a fuse of rating not exceeding 13 amp or by a circuit breaker of rating not exceeding 16amp
and should be controlled by a switch where needed
A separate switch is not required if the circuit breaker is to be used as a switch

The above comes from the section headed Final circuits using socket outlets complying with blah blah



The whole section seems to trip over itself with clarity

 

[Guitarist]

Here is a paragraph from the On site guide

Permanently connected equipment
Equipment should be locally protected by a fuse of rating not exceeding 13 amp or by a circuit breaker of rating not exceeding 16amp
and should be controlled by a switch where needed
A separate switch is not required if the circuit breaker is to be used as a switch

The above comes from the section headed Final circuits using socket outlets complying with blah blah



The whole section seems to trip over itself with clarity

The point a few of us were making is that "Manufacturers instructions" overrules that. If an appliance states that "must be protected by a 13 amp fuse", then that is what you have to do.

 

[Des 56]

The point a few of us were making is that "Manufacturers instructions" overrules that. If an appliance states that "must be protected by a 13 amp fuse", then that is what you have to do.

Sorry to confuse the flow of the thread
The post above is correct and I agree entirely with the comment and have not made argument against the advise

My reply was to the kitchen fitter where he replied to my own question to him "Have you read the section on fixed appliances"

"not as yet des, that will now be my light read material for bed time".




​

 

[Guitarist]

Sorry Des, I misunderstood your point