ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[Danspark]

I'm not the best electrician in the world, probably not even the second best (Ha Ha) but is it really down to how much you pay??

From me the answer is absolutely not. I think you may get a different answer off others.

 

[Jonny66]

But is that what YOU believe the difference is?
In other words how do the NICEIC differentiate, if an NICEIC DI spent a bit extra on fees and perhaps provided a re-wire instead of say a CU change wouldnt they then be an Approved contractor?

 

[Danspark]

But is that what YOU believe the difference is?
In other words how do the NICEIC differentiate, if an NICEIC DI spent a bit extra on fees and perhaps provided a re-wire instead of say a CU change wouldnt they then be an Approved contractor?

the best i can do now is provide a link for you or try to attach a pdf. here goes. View attachment Requirements for enrolment.pdf

 

[Jonny66]

Will have a look tomorrow maybe, would rather get an insiders opinion though mate, as dont want to join them.....must admit the NICEIC logo reminds me of the ---- and communist marketing emblems designed to stand out and grab ya (only kidding):frown2:

 

[Engineer54]

From me the answer is absolutely not. I think you may get a different answer off others.

You just have to be making this up as you go along!! lol!!

You've never heard of the 17 day whizz kids, or the electrical trainee, and think the grass grows greenest if your being scammed by the NICEIC, rather than the other scammers!! You've got to be very naive!!

Answer me this one then, .....Since when, does a time served fully qualified and experienced electrician maybe/probably with a JIB gold card, need assessing as being competent to conduct work in a domestic household?? And pay 400+ for the privilege?? The guy will have all his qualifications and indentures, and if JIB graded, even have a safety compliance card, to prove to anyone and his dog that he's competent!!!...


By the way, Long Gone are the day's when the NICEIC ''Approved Contractor'' status actually meant anything They sold they're souls out long ago, when the money came rolling in!! And as for this safety trip their now on, ...well that's just farcical!!

 

[Des 56]

The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
This has been pointed it to me by Engineer54 regarding a 17 day 5 week course. I did not know (and will have a look another time) that this existed. Someone else has suggested (but i’m running out of time so can’t go back to look) that NAPIT (i think) do their own testing course over and over until you pass. I (slightly arrogantly) already had a dim view on NAPIT which is why I wonder why anyone that knows there onions would choose to enroll with them other than it being an “easy way in”

Napit may very well do their own testing course and it may very well be a sham,they may pay lip service only to competence in testing,(that is possibly very untrue and would only be for time served experienced electricians already qualified as such)
It is however,whether the sham be true or untrue,one requirement that the Niceic does not have.neither do the Niceic require formal electrical qualifications,(again something that Napit, at the minimum,at least pay lip service to that need)
It may be the case that historically,it was the Niceic who instigated the formation, with City and guilds, for the 2391 to come into existence,it is also the case that the Niceic will enroll someone as an Approved Contractor with a Qualifying supervisor who can demonstrate some ability to test installations,but they do not require the 2391 to become the QS
However,onions or no onions,I understand it is a requirement of Napit that a person holds a testing qualification,the sham Napit 2391 fills the hole where this is not so

Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence
I really want to answer this but wasn’t sure i understand where you are going with it? we should all support individual competence (The ability to do something successfully or efficiently) Part P does not require competent individuals? Part P is an electrical safety law of the Building Regulations so it requires compliance, which is where The regulatory bodies come in?

Then let me expand on my previous post
The Niceic permit the system of Qualifying supervisor,I know because I did the job in my employed years

The QS system has been made the basis for Niceic companies to operate in the Domestic sector
A sole trader domestic installer is deemed to be the Qualifying supervisor of his own company,he is accepted into the Niceic with the bare minimum or sometimes no electrical qualification, other than perhaps the current edition of IEE regulations

So we have many enterprises with a QS and very little if any electrical training,this enterprise then employs A N Others to also carry out electrical installation
These A N Others may have had no training whatsoever they supposedly and have their work supervised,if you believe supervision actually takes place(even with the vast majority of approved contractors)then you may once again be in a small minority with that opinion

The consequences for well trained qualified electricians is that the market they have operated in is deluged with these Niceic labourers, competing with them for what was an electricians natural role,one which they may have worked many years at punitive salary to obtain the skills to carry out safely,they then find that the industry is being swamped with the untrained and the main culprits are what you term "the industry regulatory body" the Niceic and the other lesser scams,this is where individual competence is thrown to the wind
This is where the Niceic are destroying the trade
This is where qulaified expeienced electricians are getting screwed
This is the reality of the Niceic in todays world


The Niceic are not what they once were,they are a private company, no better than the rest of the organisations who milk the wages of electricans and provide little or no benefit to those electricians,they interest themselves in profit rather than safety

You talk of the Niceic as the voluntary regulatory body for electrical installation contracting,that is a wild claim by a concieted and arrogant organisation,they and some members may actually believe theese fantasies

My own understanding is that the IEE are the regulatory body,they are the body who make the regulations, but there again,the Niceic makes many claims,most of which are made in order to promote and perpetuate this illusion,

 

[Engineer54]

I think you hit nearly every nail squarely on the head with a club hammer with that post Des. lol!!

I couldn't agree more, whether you'll convince our blinkered friend otherwise, is another matter though!! lol!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
This has been pointed it to me by Engineer54 regarding a 17 day 5 week course. I did not know (and will have a look another time) that this existed. Someone else has suggested (but i’m running out of time so can’t go back to look) that NAPIT (i think) do their own testing course over and over until you pass. I (slightly arrogantly) already had a dim view on NAPIT which is why I wonder why anyone that knows there onions would choose to enroll with them other than it being an “easy way in”

Napit may very well do their own testing course and it may very well be a sham,they may pay lip service only to competence in testing,(that is possibly very untrue and would only be for time served experienced electricians already qualified as such)
It is however,whether the sham be true or untrue,one requirement that the Niceic does not have.neither do the Niceic require formal electrical qualifications,(again something that Napit, at the minimum,at least pay lip service to that need)
It may be the case that historically,it was the Niceic who instigated the formation, with City and guilds, for the 2391 to come into existence,it is also the case that the Niceic will enroll someone as an Approved Contractor with a Qualifying supervisor who can demonstrate some ability to test installations,but they do not require the 2391 to become the QS
However,onions or no onions,I understand it is a requirement of Napit that a person holds a testing qualification,the sham Napit 2391 fills the hole where this is not so

Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence
I really want to answer this but wasn’t sure i understand where you are going with it? we should all support individual competence (The ability to do something successfully or efficiently) Part P does not require competent individuals? Part P is an electrical safety law of the Building Regulations so it requires compliance, which is where The regulatory bodies come in?

Then let me expand on my previous post
The Niceic permit the system of Qualifying supervisor,I know because I did the job in my employed years

The QS system has been made the basis for Niceic companies to operate in the Domestic sector
A sole trader domestic installer is deemed to be the Qualifying supervisor of his own company,he is accepted into the Niceic with the bare minimum or sometimes no electrical qualification, other than perhaps the current edition of IEE regulations

So we have many enterprises with a QS and very little if any electrical training,this enterprise then employs A N Others to also carry out electrical installation
These A N Others may have had no training whatsoever they supposedly and have their work supervised,if you believe supervision actually takes place(even with the vast majority of approved contractors)then you may once again be in a small minority with that opinion

The consequences for well trained qualified electricians is that the market they have operated in is deluged with these Niceic labourers, competing with them for what was an electricians natural role,one which they may have worked many years at punitive salary to obtain the skills to carry out safely,they then find that the industry is being swamped with the untrained and the main culprits are what you term "the industry regulatory body" the Niceic and the other lesser scams,this is where individual competence is thrown to the wind
This is where the Niceic are destroying the trade
This is where qulaified expeienced electricians are getting screwed
This is the reality of the Niceic in todays world


The Niceic are not what they once were,they are a private company, no better than the rest of the organisations who milk the wages of electricans and provide little or no benefit to those electricians,they interest themselves in profit rather than safety

You talk of the Niceic as the voluntary regulatory body for electrical installation contracting,that is a wild claim by a concieted and arrogant organisation,they and some members may actually believe theese fantasies

My own understanding is that the IEE are the regulatory body,they are the body who make the regulations, but there again,the Niceic makes many claims,most of which are made in order to promote and perpetuate this illusion,

yes...and if you go to any of the elex shows.....it soon becomes clear that the NIC have their own set of regs....outside of the IEE......its clear.......as clear as tony cable`s voice spewing it out.....
i`v witnessed it.....

 

[MarkieSparkie]

...My own understanding is that the IEE are the regulatory body,they are the body who make the regulations, but there again,the Niceic makes many claims,most of which are made in order to promote and perpetuate this illusion,

I agree almost entirely with your post Des, but thought I would correct part of the last paragraph before the detractors jump on it:

The current regulatory body for the Wiring Regulations is the Joint IET (formerly IEE)/BSI Technical Commitee JPEL/64 who are responsible for the content of BS7671 under the authority of both the Institution of Engineering and Technology and the British Standards Board.

In addition to your points Des I would like to highlight the NICEIC mouthpiece the ESC, in the public's eyes an independent electrical safety organisation, officially a charity, but which has common board members, sources of revenue and parent company as the NICEIC!

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Danspark, the NICEIC contractor in question issued his 'report' on a price of standard a4 paper, I checked all off his faults and all bar one were fiction, I have told the customer to ask for the actual report c/w codes that apply before paying the £250 + vat for it ( 2 bed flat!!), I've issued mine , done the remedially, I've told him to take it up with the NIC if he feels agreaved, my suspicion is that the 'report' will not arrive and he won't pay them as the contractor in question probably knows he has been rumbled, again, when I spoke to the tennant she told me, 60% of the day was spent in the loft/van drinking tea, i wouldn't for one minute say all NIC guys are like this, but they are no better than the rest of us

 

[TaffyDuck]

A copy of a letter sent to ESR

Dear Sir

I have been a member of Elecsa since 2006.

In that time I have had approved contractor applied to my business name.

It would seem however that I have been demoted as it were to Domestic Installer on the new ESR. A title which is an entirely NICEIC invention.

I have been assured by Elecsa that this new venture called the ElectricSafe Register would be a benefit to my business.



It would seem however that myself, and all other Elecsa Part P Approved contractors have been sold a pup so to speak.

Perhaps you could explain why our Approved contractor status has been removed despite assurances to the contrary from Elecsa.

Yours sincerely

 

[Welchyboy]

Hasn't Elecsa always been a domestic installations/part P scheme ?? Your only assessed on domestic work so why would they give you any further accreditations on something thats out of their scope

If you dont want to be classed as a domestic installer why dont you man-up and a apply for ECA or NIC approved schemes

 

[TaffyDuck]

Hasn't Elecsa always been a domestic installations/part P scheme ?? Your only assessed on domestic work so why would they give you any further accreditations on something thats out of their scope

If you dont want to be classed as a domestic installer why dont you man-up and a apply for ECA or NIC approved schemes

Man-up?

I am a highly qualified and very experienced electrician who has been, through business necessity, dragged into these get rich quick schemes. I don`t need to prove anything to anyone.

Least of all you.

I was told at my last assessment that I couldn`t show an industrial 3-phase installation as it wasn`t domestic. Now I`m told that I am a domestic installer even though a fair proportion of my work is commercial/ light industrial.

I will probably now, if this register becomes the "definitive search" as is planned need to do just as you suggest and re-join the NIC ( Where I was an approved contractor until 2005). This will have the effect of costing me even more money, surprise surprise.

The ECA have been duped by the NIC AGAIN.

 

[TaffyDuck]

And incidentally if you think the NIC approved scheme is anything more than a coffee drinking exercise you are badly informed. I`ve done both those and Part P assessments many times and its nowt more than a way to part you from your cash.

 

[Welchyboy]

And incidentally if you think the NIC approved scheme is anything more than a coffee drinking exercise you are badly informed. I`ve done both those and Part P assessments many times and its nowt more than a way to part you from your cash.

Obviously touching on a raw nerve there

I can't remember at what point I questioned your competence? , I was enquiring why your throwing your toys out of your prams because you joined a domestic electrical installation competant person scheme then wonder why they state domestic installer???????????

 

[Simlec]

I can't remember seeing from the last time I looked in the BGB or doc part P where it stated "domestic installer"
Elecsa allowed members to self certify work in a domestic environment, not make members become a "domestic installer"

 

[AP Electrical]

Could see this coming so I went for the free transfer to nic a few weeks ago with a view to going approved contractor, can't see any point staying with elecsa as there promotion to the public is terrible and this di is the nail in the coffin for me.

 

[D Skelton]

Hasn't Elecsa always been a domestic installations/part P scheme ?? Your only assessed on domestic work so why would they give you any further accreditations on something thats out of their scope

No, it has always been a scheme that has approved electricians (whatever their level of ability) to self certify work in domestic dwellings under Part P of the building regulations. A lot of my work is commercial/industrial, therefore I am not a domestic installer, however as stated above, I am approved to self certify in domestic dwellings under Part P.

If you dont want to be classed as a domestic installer why dont you man-up and a apply for ECA or NIC approved schemes

You obviously haven't read through the entire thread and read all relevant responses. Please do this before you come on here with your ill informed, arrogant, high and mighty attitude.

If I'm wrong however and indeed you have read through the entire thread, well, this is about the time where I stop taking anything you have to say seriously!

 

[MDJ]

Perhaps you could explain why our Approved contractor status has been removed despite assurances to the contrary from Elecsa.

Good last point, I would love to see their reply, that will shake them, however they will have excuses and answers ready for any questions thrown at them I bet, good post though.

 

[D Skelton]

Elecsa have now replied to my original message. Do have a read below :



Dear Mr Skelton,

Thank you for your email and for the valid points that you have raised. ELECSA is pleased to be part of the Electrical Safety Register and see this as an important first step to joining up the industry. As such the creation of the Electrical Safety Register website is just the first step in communicating to all consumers, clients and specifiers of the value of using registered contractors. It will continue to develop and evolve as the promotion of the Register gets underway. There are many changes that will be made to the website as a result of feedback received since making the site live and in particular your points about how contractors are presented will be an important part of those changes. What I can't assure you of at this time is exactly when these changes will be made however, all future developments and improvements to the Electrical Safety Register will be communicated to all ELECSA contractors via the usual communication channels (email, website and SPARK).

At ELECSA we do value all of our contractors and do strive to provide a high level of customer service and this attention to our contractors needs will continue. I am sorry if you feel that we have not satisfactorily maintained these standards whilst we were establishing the partnership that has created the Electrical Safety Register but I can assure you that all feedback received is being put into the future development plans of the register for the benefit of all of our contractors.

Kindest regards,

*** ***



Now the response I sent today to that rubbish:




Dear ***

This is simply not good enough! I deserve more than just a generic copied and pasted response to a highly important enquiry!

Begrudgingly I pay silly amounts of money every year to a scheme that does absolutely nothing for me, we as electrical contractors all know the con that is the requirement under Part P to sign up to corporate scamsters like yourselves but that argument is for another day! The very least you could have done, considering the sheer amount of MY money that I unwillingly hand over to you each year, would have been to consult your customers, ie. me! But where was this consultation? Where was my say in how you choose to let me be represented?

You talk of many changes being made as a result of feedback recieved, but is this just another way of saying "Yeah yeah, we'll pretend we're listening", and then dumping my concerns down the memory hole?

I made my concerns very clear in my first email to Elecsa, these concerns are that your decision to let the NICEIC handle our details is now going to affect my business! It is affecting my business as I write this! Something which you have claimed numurous times will not happen. Letting my business be defined as a 'Domestic Installer' cannot and will not continue!

I don't wish to hear weak excuses for your actions. I don't wish to hear "Yeah we'll get round to sorting something out at some point but who knows when?". If these matters are not addressed NOW, I will be considering taking legal advice.

Ms ***, I mean this with no disrespect but if these matters are above your pay grade, I would advise you to forward both my emails on to someone who can actually enter into some form of dialogue with me regarding these matters.

Kind regards,