G
GLENNSPARK
aye it is that.....
and if their tryin to create self esteem or summat.....lol...
standards of ones work will give that.....not some `register`....lol...
ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!
- Thread starter D Skelton
- Start date
and if their tryin to create self esteem or summat.....lol...
standards of ones work will give that.....not some `register`....lol...
D
Danspark
- Nov 24, 2010
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We're a little past being fooled by statements like that
We've already got an official forum troll, we don't need another
Nice try though lol
D
Danspark
G
GLENNSPARK
wonder if he works for one of em damian?...We're a little past being fooled by statements like that
We've already got an official forum troll, we don't need another
Nice try though lol
L
LlandrilloSpark
E
Engineer54
Perhaps you would care to enlighten us all, as to why you would think it's the ''best thing that's happened to the industry''??
I can think of only ONE reason why you might think so, but that would be to the detriment of all the time served or otherwise fully qualified and experienced electricians out there!!
D
Danspark
Why is Part P good for the industry...?
In April 2005 when part P was introduced I needed it like a hole in the head; we were going through a boom, there was more work than I could handle, so with the introduction of Part P, the additional paperwork and conforming to rules set by a governing body it was far from desirable.
There were lots of folk flapping about what a mess it was, but I have to say it was mainly from other tradesman. Plumbers that wouldn’t be able to install a feed for a boiler, plasterers that couldn’t fit a socket whilst on site plastering a wall and kitchen fitters that would have to coordinate the arrival of an approved electrician that could conform to Part P of building regulations. To quote a kitchen fitter from 2005 that was asking me to certify his work “come on dan; you know me, it always works first time”.
How many of you have had an experience similar to this? I have Romanian contact that is a tiler (a bloody good tiler as well), he also provides the full “building service” he rings me and says “I have a job; i’ve rewired a house and the building inspector needs a certificate and confirmation of compliance with part P of the building regulations” ok i say, ill call and give you a cost to re-wire it. “no Danny, i’ve rewired it, i just need you to issue a certificate for me” Now, the job I first met him on he was tiling the floor for one of my customers, he saw a window for gaining more work and proceeded to lay the under floor heating himself. I was very interested in how he had gone about this and when i looked into it he had channeled up to the light switches with his cables coiled up expecting to pick up a feed.
I used to do a lot of insurance work for one of my builders. The common types were water damage, usually down to bad plumbing installations. The not so common lighting strikes and the worst of them all, fire damage. Now several of the fire damaged jobs that I worked on were electrical faults, examples are; Nokia charger bought for £0.99 off fleebay. A floor board that had been lifted and placed back with a nail through a cable. Another was caused by additional spotlights installed in a bedroom. It was clear to see it certainly was not done by a competent person or maybe it was and maybe he only had 2 hours on a sunday to get the work done and get out of there. It would have been a different story if it was done by someone who was accountable and their livelihood depended on them dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s.
We are now 7 years into having lived with the change in our industry and I can honestly say that when I turn up to a domestic property there is a fair chance that the wiring is going to be in a better state than it would have been pre 2005, why, because if they have had any work done or the house has changed ownership then I can expect some improvements to have been made, and thats because of the introduction of Part P.
People I feel may be unduly suffering from part P would (for example) be one of the sparks I employ. He goes home after finishing a day for me, his wife wants him to install an extra socket in the kitchen so she can do the ironing while she waits for oven to ping. Now he thinks he’s competent to do the work, I think he’s competent to do the work, but you don’t know him, he can be lazy (if your reading this mate i don’t mean it, its just a scenario) but lets assume he hasn't done any work while he’s lived there and the wiring is as it was when he bought it (pre 2005) Is he going to go buy a new consumer unit and replace it, is he going to bond the water thats at the other end of the house is he going to test the circuits and record all the relevant data... he should be he just can’t be assed! So he either employs someone to do it or he does the work and turns a blind eye to the notification, maybe he just waits until he sells the house and has an electrical condition report carried out. (although this can be a problem if there was to be an insurance claim).
Building control notifications are now a legal requirement. But it has always been a legal requirement to issue a certificate for any electrical works carried out. One of my tutors from when I left school and went to college also worked for/with the IEE in respect to implementing new wiring regulations and was/is employed by prosecution teams in court cases when accusing electricians/companies for liability or neglect. He would say he could sit there and listen to the electrician/company all day and all he had to do was pull out the electricity at work act (which is, as far as I remember, is a statutory requirement) and ask “where’s the certificate?”
It makes sense to me that with the importance of the certificate and the legal obligation to comply with part P of the regulations that the customer (who knows very little) can relax knowing that their chosen spark will do what is expected of them. It is also important that the regulatory body who has taken the money from the electrician will also be accountable for the electricians that they have enrolled.
A lot of my work during this recession are requests for electrical condition reports. Not necessarily domestic, in-fact its mainly for commercial and industrial properties but this shows the growing concern and necessity for electrical safety, which we should be promoting!
Since the introduction of part P I’ve found myself in greater demand because i’m not competing with joe blogs that once new someone that had a brother that worked with a spark for a year and knows what he’s doing!
And then there’s that £50 job of fitting a socket for someone that now may be a bigger job as there are a ton of other works that may have to be done first.
If I meet a customer for the first time and they are pulling their face because they aren't concerned about the safety element or they have no concern for their responsibility for the electrical safety in their house then so be it, I don’t want them as a customer. I want my customers to be concerned, know they have called the right person and recommend me to their friends who’s only concern is also that “it’s done right”
Reading in every other thread the reference to governing bodies as Scams is doing us no favors at all. Are you not more peeved off with the HMRC who insist that we count beans for them on a regular basis, collect said beans, put to one side and send them off when required (risk being fined) with no payment from them what so ever! But I guess as with all my company expenses from paper, envelopes, books, ink tools safety clothes, more exams and bloody fuel, that it is all accounted for in my charges.
Summary...
I used to be a hairy arsed tradesman, I could turn up, install socket and get paid for the time on site and leave. *checks year end books... in 2004 I turned over £60,000 with £30,000 profit last year turned over £120,000 with £55,000 profit.
Now I’m providing a service, one that not just anyone can provide. I have fulfilled certain requirements, jumped through how ever many ridiculous hoops and when the NICEIC say jump I ask how high. But I then get to charge accordingly, I do nothing for free! its a business, more work more money!
Does this make me a forum troll D Skelton? hope not, I’ve tried to describe how part P has affected me and and answer Engineer54 as to why I think it was the best thing to happen to our industry. Does this make me unwelcome on the forum... maybe... or maybe ill start believing it’s a scam myself the more I read the posts on here.
Dan
M
markc123
Cant quote on mobile,apologies.You've just summed up whats bad about part p - plasteres fixing sockets and the like, the amount of times when checked the back boxes are unearthed is unbelievable. Problem with part p is you get people who arent electricians thinking they are electricians.For inatance i know a gas man who has part p registered on side of his van...i was wiring a caravan up and he questioned why i was extending the cable....i explained if he checked part 7 of the regs he would understand that the bottom of the outside socket must be 0.5meters from the ground....he went to his van and got the regs out and looked....what???Also ure saying that you sign off a romanian tilers rewires hahaha thats the best thing ive ever read....i dont care how good he is or that hes foreign, the bottom line is that hes not qualified so he shouldnt be doing it
V
vaughant
To be fair he didn't say he signed it off he said the guy WANTED him to do it.
Sadly it's like anything else,in THEORY it's a good idea but in practice that's not always the case.
I think you self employed guys need to break away from these idiot organisations and set up your own body,save all this nonsense you get now.
- - - Updated - - -
To be fair he didn't say he signed it off he said the guy WANTED him to do it.
Sadly it's like anything else,in THEORY it's a good idea but in practice that's not always the case.
I think you self employed guys need to break away from these idiot organisations and set up your own body,save all this nonsense you get now.
E
ezzzekiel
M
MBEINST
Oh Dear!
Danspark puts across some good points and the least we can do is the courtesy of reading his post. Maybe we are so high and mighty that nobody else's opinion but our own is worth listening too.
Is the forum turning into a ---- state?
Good post Danspark.
I would also be interested in enlightenment from those who have rejected joining a scheme 'scam' on how they notify their work?
'Think for yourselves, don't succumb to mob rule'.
- Nov 24, 2010
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I agree with most of what Dan says, but when we talk on here about Part P being crap for the industry, what most are referring to is the part of Part P that requires nontification through a governemt approved scheme. Its the private regulation most of us detest, not Part P as a whole. If it was government REGULATED and it existed not as a money making scam but purely to make sure sparks had the neccesarry quals, I think most would welcome it. The scam is private companies telling us what we can and can't do and charging us through the nose to do it. Hope that explains where I sit Dan. And apologies for assuming you were trolling, it is quite clear now that you have your head screwed on, although in my opinion very slightly misguided. Maybe we are partly to blame for that though.
Anyway, I would like to ask if we could keep the part p bashing to a minimum, this is purely a post for Elecsa bashing! Lol.
Anyway, I would like to ask if we could keep the part p bashing to a minimum, this is purely a post for Elecsa bashing! Lol.
D
Danspark
How do markc123,
You started by saying “I have summed up whats bad about part p - plasterers fixing sockets and the like.” but this is whats good about part p. If a plasterer chooses to do some electrical installation work (domestic property only) he has chosen to break the law. This works in our favor does it not? Laws are in place and it will to some degree stop people from breaking them, granted, not always. Out of interest, if a plasterer was to buy a steel back box where still sells them with two adjustable lugs? I haven’t seen these type in my wholesalers for a long time but you describe the non earthing of back boxes as “unbelievable”. I believe that it is desirable but it often is not a necessity. Assuming that we have a modern metallic back box with 1 fixed lug and 1 adjustable lug then care must be taken because some socket-outlets have only one earthing strap and eyelet (mine have two). If this is the case you must be sure that the earthing eyelet is located at the fixed lug position, otherwise an earthing tail must be used. if you are still earthing back boxes then good on ya! but it is not a requirement! and IMHO it is not “unbelievable” not to.
I did NOT say that i signed off a Romanian tilers re-wires, he was asking me to sign it off, I said I would cost for re-wiring it, he explains he’s done it, I explain that ill re-wire it again and then he can have a certificate (i thought this was a good way to teach him not to touch electrics!!!!)
The other point you make about a gas man who has part p registered on the side of his van... correct me if i’m wrong, but part P is for compliance within a domestic property and assuming your caravan was in a caravan park why would you expect him to know anything about the height of a socket? this falls outside the scope of his work does it not? sounds like he was interested to learn and it is applaudable that he carries regulations around in his van.
Dan
You started by saying “I have summed up whats bad about part p - plasterers fixing sockets and the like.” but this is whats good about part p. If a plasterer chooses to do some electrical installation work (domestic property only) he has chosen to break the law. This works in our favor does it not? Laws are in place and it will to some degree stop people from breaking them, granted, not always. Out of interest, if a plasterer was to buy a steel back box where still sells them with two adjustable lugs? I haven’t seen these type in my wholesalers for a long time but you describe the non earthing of back boxes as “unbelievable”. I believe that it is desirable but it often is not a necessity. Assuming that we have a modern metallic back box with 1 fixed lug and 1 adjustable lug then care must be taken because some socket-outlets have only one earthing strap and eyelet (mine have two). If this is the case you must be sure that the earthing eyelet is located at the fixed lug position, otherwise an earthing tail must be used. if you are still earthing back boxes then good on ya! but it is not a requirement! and IMHO it is not “unbelievable” not to.
I did NOT say that i signed off a Romanian tilers re-wires, he was asking me to sign it off, I said I would cost for re-wiring it, he explains he’s done it, I explain that ill re-wire it again and then he can have a certificate (i thought this was a good way to teach him not to touch electrics!!!!)
The other point you make about a gas man who has part p registered on the side of his van... correct me if i’m wrong, but part P is for compliance within a domestic property and assuming your caravan was in a caravan park why would you expect him to know anything about the height of a socket? this falls outside the scope of his work does it not? sounds like he was interested to learn and it is applaudable that he carries regulations around in his van.
Dan
S
Simlec
Indeed, Dan I think your missing the original problem that was posted!
I'm all for been regulated annually and paying my money.
I'm all for been regulated annually and paying my money.
E
Engineer54
Well you have painted a rosy picture that all sounds great on paper, but you are conveniently leaving out/skimming over what has been the real reality of the the present Part Pee scam providers input so far, into this industry. Part Pee itself is not the problem, though there is room for some sensible improvement. ...It's the commercial oriented providers that's the main problem with Part Pee.
These scam providers have created the lowest class of electrician that you could possibly think of, that's sole qualification is nothing more than a add-on certificate. I can't think of another responsible Western country that would allow such a standard! These folk are going into peoples homes and conducting electrical work, that were in some cases, stacking shelves at a Tesco store just 17 day's earlier. This has had a knock on effect throughout the electrical contracting industry not just in the domestic area. Think about it and you'll understand Why!!
Another knock on effect, is the rise of these centres offering 17 day/5 week DI courses, which are encouraged and often supported by these scam providers. These totally under trained inexperienced (so-called DI's ...whatever that's supposed to mean) are literary flooding the domestic jobbing electrician sector. So much for your competent person statements above. By the way these scam providers are NOT governing bodies, though they all like to think and act as if they were!!
Please don't try and convince us here about the standard of work in the domestic sector as haven risen since 2005, you only have to look at the standard of these so called certs that have been filled in by totally inept wanna-be electricians. Also, contrary to what you believe, the scam providers have no legal responsibility for the registered members, or their customers. Try getting any of them involved in any member/customer dispute, and you'll soon find out for yourself!! lol!! The only thing they get concerned with, is folk that are using their Logo on vans and stationary!!
These part Pee scams have all just jumped onto a captive money making loop, that just keeps making more and more money, but which offers very little benefit to anyone else least of all it's members or the members customers, but has however over the years, helped in the detriment of the industry as a whole...
As far as safety goes, these providers are effectively contradicting the very reason why they came into existence in the first place, ....providing authentication of competent persons!! Anyone personally know of anyone failing an assessment based on not being competent?/ I bet you could count them on one hand... lol!!
I could go on, but to be honest i just can't be arsed, i'll leave that to the plenty of others here that can rip through your post above...
- -
These scam providers have created the lowest class of electrician that you could possibly think of, that's sole qualification is nothing more than a add-on certificate. I can't think of another responsible Western country that would allow such a standard! These folk are going into peoples homes and conducting electrical work, that were in some cases, stacking shelves at a Tesco store just 17 day's earlier. This has had a knock on effect throughout the electrical contracting industry not just in the domestic area. Think about it and you'll understand Why!!
Another knock on effect, is the rise of these centres offering 17 day/5 week DI courses, which are encouraged and often supported by these scam providers. These totally under trained inexperienced (so-called DI's ...whatever that's supposed to mean) are literary flooding the domestic jobbing electrician sector. So much for your competent person statements above. By the way these scam providers are NOT governing bodies, though they all like to think and act as if they were!!
Please don't try and convince us here about the standard of work in the domestic sector as haven risen since 2005, you only have to look at the standard of these so called certs that have been filled in by totally inept wanna-be electricians. Also, contrary to what you believe, the scam providers have no legal responsibility for the registered members, or their customers. Try getting any of them involved in any member/customer dispute, and you'll soon find out for yourself!! lol!! The only thing they get concerned with, is folk that are using their Logo on vans and stationary!!
These part Pee scams have all just jumped onto a captive money making loop, that just keeps making more and more money, but which offers very little benefit to anyone else least of all it's members or the members customers, but has however over the years, helped in the detriment of the industry as a whole...
As far as safety goes, these providers are effectively contradicting the very reason why they came into existence in the first place, ....providing authentication of competent persons!! Anyone personally know of anyone failing an assessment based on not being competent?/ I bet you could count them on one hand... lol!!
I could go on, but to be honest i just can't be arsed, i'll leave that to the plenty of others here that can rip through your post above...
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D
Danspark
*sorry ezzzekiel, no pictures I'm afraid so you may lose interest again.
Hi Simlec,
Your right, and I must apologize to D Skelton who clearly didn’t want his post hijacking with a debate about our thoughts on part P I simply couldn’t handle listening to Part P being described as useless and a con on so many threads that I read, I just happened to chose this thread to say something, I was then asked to explain myself and I tried). Sorry D Skelton for the hijack.
I’ve read over the original post again and heres my views on your views regarding the classifications of approved contractor and domestic installer which i think is your primary gripe with the electrical safety register.
NICEIC and their classifications of approved contractors and domestic installers. In the beginning the NICEIC had approved contractors, with the introduction of part p they had to accommodate electricians that could meet the “lower” requirements in order to be allegeable for working on domestic properties, hence the introduction of “domestic installer”. Just incase I'm insulting anyone by referring to domestic installer as being lower requirements let me give an example. I’m an approved contractor, my local Landrover dealers has to source a contractor for working at their property. If I'm going to work on the fire alarm panel I must meet the requirements set by the NICEIC and own an up to date copy of BS 5839 part 1 code of practice. If, on my annual assessment I haven't worked on a fire alarm system then I'm not required to own a copy (sounds fair?). The cost of being an approved contractor (annual fee, not including additional literature that may be required) was X amount and to accommodate part p and domestic installer status was a lower fee. However when I looked at these costs it wasn’t worth not going for approved contractor status. Since the name “approved contractor” was already being used by the NICEIC another term had to be used to describe those that could work on domestic properties hence the introduction of “domestic installer” (DSkelton, This is how you describe it only i see it the other way round, all electricians were approved contractors until the introduction of domestic installer which would be charged at a lower fee). (again this sounds fair) It did annoy me that some domestic installer electricians approved with the NICEIC were describing them selves as NICEIC approved. Yes they had been approved by the NICEIC to carry out domestic electrical work based on annual assessments but this does not make them fall into the approved contractors category. This was degrading my status as an approved contractor that required more hoops to jump through and more money (remember, approved contractor was first then came domestic installer) and i don’t believe they put the cost of approved contractor status up.
I cant really comment on your views regarding the NICEIC essentially creating their own rules as i haven't experienced this (or i have but haven’t realised) they simply have a list of requirements, but with regards for them promoting the idea that to get a 'proper' electrician, they have to be NIC registered, this is simply good business marketing!
I for one am glad there are several bodies to choose from otherwise the NICEIC would have the monopoly and god knows how much i’d be paying. But i cant understand why anyone would register with any of the others other than the ECA. No one has ever rung me and asked if i could go round and do some work “oh and by the way, are you approved with NAPIT” I do get asked if I'm an registered with the NICEIC. Lets not forget that the NICEIC did a lot to promote the introduction of part p, to the general public via adverts in papers etc...
I wonder if electricians that join other bodies do so because its the path of least resistance? i dunno..
Prior to the introduction of part p did ELECSA exist and did they have an approved contractor scheme similar to that of the NICEIC or was ELECSA set up with the sole intention of accommodating the introduction of part p?
I appreciate that Dskelton has a gripe with the NICEIC and I have had reason to on a couple of occasions over the last 7 years but for different reasons to him/you.
My thoughts DSkelton, are go with option 3 if you can address the problems you have with the NICEIC and if you can bring your self to do it become an NICEIC approved contractor (hope thats not the equivalent to swearing at you) then do it!!
With the upmost respect... Dan
Hi Simlec,
Your right, and I must apologize to D Skelton who clearly didn’t want his post hijacking with a debate about our thoughts on part P I simply couldn’t handle listening to Part P being described as useless and a con on so many threads that I read, I just happened to chose this thread to say something, I was then asked to explain myself and I tried). Sorry D Skelton for the hijack.
I’ve read over the original post again and heres my views on your views regarding the classifications of approved contractor and domestic installer which i think is your primary gripe with the electrical safety register.
NICEIC and their classifications of approved contractors and domestic installers. In the beginning the NICEIC had approved contractors, with the introduction of part p they had to accommodate electricians that could meet the “lower” requirements in order to be allegeable for working on domestic properties, hence the introduction of “domestic installer”. Just incase I'm insulting anyone by referring to domestic installer as being lower requirements let me give an example. I’m an approved contractor, my local Landrover dealers has to source a contractor for working at their property. If I'm going to work on the fire alarm panel I must meet the requirements set by the NICEIC and own an up to date copy of BS 5839 part 1 code of practice. If, on my annual assessment I haven't worked on a fire alarm system then I'm not required to own a copy (sounds fair?). The cost of being an approved contractor (annual fee, not including additional literature that may be required) was X amount and to accommodate part p and domestic installer status was a lower fee. However when I looked at these costs it wasn’t worth not going for approved contractor status. Since the name “approved contractor” was already being used by the NICEIC another term had to be used to describe those that could work on domestic properties hence the introduction of “domestic installer” (DSkelton, This is how you describe it only i see it the other way round, all electricians were approved contractors until the introduction of domestic installer which would be charged at a lower fee). (again this sounds fair) It did annoy me that some domestic installer electricians approved with the NICEIC were describing them selves as NICEIC approved. Yes they had been approved by the NICEIC to carry out domestic electrical work based on annual assessments but this does not make them fall into the approved contractors category. This was degrading my status as an approved contractor that required more hoops to jump through and more money (remember, approved contractor was first then came domestic installer) and i don’t believe they put the cost of approved contractor status up.
I cant really comment on your views regarding the NICEIC essentially creating their own rules as i haven't experienced this (or i have but haven’t realised) they simply have a list of requirements, but with regards for them promoting the idea that to get a 'proper' electrician, they have to be NIC registered, this is simply good business marketing!
I for one am glad there are several bodies to choose from otherwise the NICEIC would have the monopoly and god knows how much i’d be paying. But i cant understand why anyone would register with any of the others other than the ECA. No one has ever rung me and asked if i could go round and do some work “oh and by the way, are you approved with NAPIT” I do get asked if I'm an registered with the NICEIC. Lets not forget that the NICEIC did a lot to promote the introduction of part p, to the general public via adverts in papers etc...
I wonder if electricians that join other bodies do so because its the path of least resistance? i dunno..
Prior to the introduction of part p did ELECSA exist and did they have an approved contractor scheme similar to that of the NICEIC or was ELECSA set up with the sole intention of accommodating the introduction of part p?
I appreciate that Dskelton has a gripe with the NICEIC and I have had reason to on a couple of occasions over the last 7 years but for different reasons to him/you.
My thoughts DSkelton, are go with option 3 if you can address the problems you have with the NICEIC and if you can bring your self to do it become an NICEIC approved contractor (hope thats not the equivalent to swearing at you) then do it!!
With the upmost respect... Dan
- Nov 24, 2010
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Dan, if you read through my post (#53), you will see what most sparks gripes are with Part P. Engineer54 has expanded on that and sums the Part P argument up very well in post #56. Other than that, I think we have all made our points known about what we think of Part P in general and specifically what we think of the requirement under Part P to be 'regulated' by private, money grabbing, scumbag scam schemes.
Back on topic, in response to your argument regarding the difference between Approved Contractors and Domestic Installers, the NIC are fully entitled to make up off the top of their heads whatever terms or phrases they want to describe their electricians. My point is simply that no matter which way you look at it, they are all made up terms! These terms belong to the NIC and are used by only the NIC. Under Part P of the Building Regulations, (forgetting that you can go to LABC direct), to carry out most types of electrical work in a dwelling you have to be approved for self certification by a government recognised self certification scheme. This means that whatever scam scheme you're with whether it be the NIC, Elecsa, NAPIT, Stroma, Corgi, BSI etc... you are approved to self certify. Even if the NIC have branded you a domestic installer, whether you or they like it or not, legally speaking you are still approved by the NIC for carrying out self certification under Part P.
This is where my argument comes in. If the NIC want to make up terms for their sparks, that's their perogative, however I'm with Elecsa and I'm approved by them to self certify work in domestic dwellings, what I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector. This is one of the reasons I left the NIC because I begrudged having to fork out more money to be labelled by them as 'Approved' even though I was anyway! and as I said, I carry out work in other sectors so I didn't want to be described as just a domestic spark. Up until now with Elecsa, this has never been the case, because I like to believe that Elecsa know that they have no place whatsoever to be implying what sector an electrician is competent to work in. They know that the scope of Part P does not extend past domestic work, hence why I say again, you are either approved to self certify, or you are not, it's that simple.
The NIC it seems has now taken control of this Electrical Safety Register and is now branding electricians approved by another scheme as 'Domestic Installers'. This is in my opinion absolutely disgusting and for me typifies exactly what the NIC are about; Representing themselves as if they are the sole regulator in the electrical industry. Whether the NIC are good at marketing or not, I did not join Elecsa to be 'regulated' and have made up terms attributed to my business by the NIC!
You wonder if electricians that join other bodies do so because it's the path of least resistance? Well for me, I hate all the scam schemes with every single fiber of my body! I just hate Elecsa a little less than I hate the NIC! For me, it's moral issue, it's got nothing to do with my level of experience, my amount of qualifications, or a lack of funds to pay the extra dosh for 'Approved Contractor' status.
You make the point that I should take option 3 and rejoin the NIC as an approved contractor, well this is all well and good but what happens if all Elecsa sparks did this because of the NICs behaviour? What if all Elecsa sparks joined 'the enemy' because we all had a 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' approach? Well that monopoly you worry about the NIC gaining might just start to become a reality! It's lose - lose for both us as Elecsa approved contractos and Elecsa themselves. If they dont sort this out, they lose their customers to the NIC, and we as electricians are stuck with the NIC and their inevitable monopoly driven price hikes!
BTW Dan, my bold font and exclamation marks don't mean I'm shouting at you, I'm just very angry at both Elecsa and the NIC and also very passionate about this subject
Back on topic, in response to your argument regarding the difference between Approved Contractors and Domestic Installers, the NIC are fully entitled to make up off the top of their heads whatever terms or phrases they want to describe their electricians. My point is simply that no matter which way you look at it, they are all made up terms! These terms belong to the NIC and are used by only the NIC. Under Part P of the Building Regulations, (forgetting that you can go to LABC direct), to carry out most types of electrical work in a dwelling you have to be approved for self certification by a government recognised self certification scheme. This means that whatever scam scheme you're with whether it be the NIC, Elecsa, NAPIT, Stroma, Corgi, BSI etc... you are approved to self certify. Even if the NIC have branded you a domestic installer, whether you or they like it or not, legally speaking you are still approved by the NIC for carrying out self certification under Part P.
This is where my argument comes in. If the NIC want to make up terms for their sparks, that's their perogative, however I'm with Elecsa and I'm approved by them to self certify work in domestic dwellings, what I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector. This is one of the reasons I left the NIC because I begrudged having to fork out more money to be labelled by them as 'Approved' even though I was anyway! and as I said, I carry out work in other sectors so I didn't want to be described as just a domestic spark. Up until now with Elecsa, this has never been the case, because I like to believe that Elecsa know that they have no place whatsoever to be implying what sector an electrician is competent to work in. They know that the scope of Part P does not extend past domestic work, hence why I say again, you are either approved to self certify, or you are not, it's that simple.
The NIC it seems has now taken control of this Electrical Safety Register and is now branding electricians approved by another scheme as 'Domestic Installers'. This is in my opinion absolutely disgusting and for me typifies exactly what the NIC are about; Representing themselves as if they are the sole regulator in the electrical industry. Whether the NIC are good at marketing or not, I did not join Elecsa to be 'regulated' and have made up terms attributed to my business by the NIC!
You wonder if electricians that join other bodies do so because it's the path of least resistance? Well for me, I hate all the scam schemes with every single fiber of my body! I just hate Elecsa a little less than I hate the NIC! For me, it's moral issue, it's got nothing to do with my level of experience, my amount of qualifications, or a lack of funds to pay the extra dosh for 'Approved Contractor' status.
You make the point that I should take option 3 and rejoin the NIC as an approved contractor, well this is all well and good but what happens if all Elecsa sparks did this because of the NICs behaviour? What if all Elecsa sparks joined 'the enemy' because we all had a 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' approach? Well that monopoly you worry about the NIC gaining might just start to become a reality! It's lose - lose for both us as Elecsa approved contractos and Elecsa themselves. If they dont sort this out, they lose their customers to the NIC, and we as electricians are stuck with the NIC and their inevitable monopoly driven price hikes!
BTW Dan, my bold font and exclamation marks don't mean I'm shouting at you, I'm just very angry at both Elecsa and the NIC and also very passionate about this subject
Last edited:
E
Engineer54
And we all know what monopolies mean don't we, ....Fee increases galore!!
By the way, ...what is the fee's now for being a NIC ''Approved Contractor''??
By the way, ...what is the fee's now for being a NIC ''Approved Contractor''??
- Nov 24, 2010
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Too right!!! And last time I checked, it was £200 on top of your DI payment. I could be wrong there though, I haven't been on their website for a couple of years.
J
Jonny66
Well said MR Skelton, just deleted what I was typing......
Get rid of all this imposed labeling and rating of electricians based solely on what you've paid into a scheme.....
If the NIC, JIB, ECA were in the least bit interested in improving the ability of electricians and safety of installations etc etc, why not have a fully written proper exam like the old 2391, to say "your now an Approved Electrical Contractor" because you've passed this and have over 2 years experience, why not????? We know why, £££££!!!!!
Get rid of all this imposed labeling and rating of electricians based solely on what you've paid into a scheme.....
If the NIC, JIB, ECA were in the least bit interested in improving the ability of electricians and safety of installations etc etc, why not have a fully written proper exam like the old 2391, to say "your now an Approved Electrical Contractor" because you've passed this and have over 2 years experience, why not????? We know why, £££££!!!!!
M
markc123
To be fair, i actually apologise. I only half read this off my phone whilst on a job this thread and obviouslly didn't read it properly.
You raise some interesting points, and on second reading on a full screen you obviouslly know what you're talking about. The way you've described it, has in truth, probably made me less sceptical about the whole thing.
The only issue i have, and regards to the caravan park i was on about is that people take the PART P course at a local college then suddenly they think they can do an awful lot more they can do as regards to electrics and it annoys me - yes their breaking the law, but this will only come to light when something goes wrong, and until that happens (hopefully it wont) unqualified and uncompetent people are taking electricans work.
If there is a proper way of regulating it, so plasteres just fit the odd socket, or gas men just wire up the boiler then im all for it.
It needs alot more improvement IMHO.
Sorry for the earlier reply, abit of a bad day, and didn't mean to come across a grade A nobhead which on second reading i did.
Mark
A
ayrshirespark
My local council only accept niceic certs for works carried out on properties eg minor works which is a disgrace
J
Jonny66
Just out of interest, what law are people breaking by carrying out electrical work in domestic premises???? as far as I'm aware it is the responsibility of the homeowner to notify LABC.
- - - Updated - - -
Take them to court then
- - - Updated - - -
Take them to court then
M
markc123
I suppose they're not technically breaking any law, apart from the unstatuory common sense law.
I do not think its right people undertaking electrical work when they're not qualified.
Every electricians deserves more respect than they get, to become fully qualified and competent the proper way takes years of hardwork and endless exams, and everyone with the certs has my upmost respect because its not an easy journey....
....and then for people to come along as part p registered or qualified domestically after 10weeks really really annoys me.
Something needs to change, some law needs to be brought into force...i don't know what or how but something has to be done.
Think we're slightly straying from the OP here now.
I do not think its right people undertaking electrical work when they're not qualified.
Every electricians deserves more respect than they get, to become fully qualified and competent the proper way takes years of hardwork and endless exams, and everyone with the certs has my upmost respect because its not an easy journey....
....and then for people to come along as part p registered or qualified domestically after 10weeks really really annoys me.
Something needs to change, some law needs to be brought into force...i don't know what or how but something has to be done.
Think we're slightly straying from the OP here now.
T
TaffyDuck
Well I have been with ELECSA since 2006. Their website says that if I pass the assessment ( which of course I always have) that I am an Approved contractor. My assessment certificate states Approved Contractor and the letter I received the other day informing me of this exciting development clearly states that nothing will change.
It would appear however that despite many years experience and every qualification under the sun I have been demoted to a previously NIC invention of Domestic installer whatever the f*ck that is.
So in my humble opinion ELECSA are in breach of contract.
Have written this evening to ELECSA give them a shout too.
No doubt I will get a letter saying that if I pay another 200 quid I can continue as an approved contractor.
What a laugh.
If they dont sort this, I`m off to Napit or Stroma ( or whatever they are called)
It would appear however that despite many years experience and every qualification under the sun I have been demoted to a previously NIC invention of Domestic installer whatever the f*ck that is.
So in my humble opinion ELECSA are in breach of contract.
Have written this evening to ELECSA give them a shout too.
No doubt I will get a letter saying that if I pay another 200 quid I can continue as an approved contractor.
What a laugh.
If they dont sort this, I`m off to Napit or Stroma ( or whatever they are called)
E
ezzzekiel
to be honest i never regained interest to lose it again.
partp has not worked and will not work while it is being used purely for raking in money.
a short example of just one issue.
Napit insist on holding 2391 testing qualification, however for a small fee rather than sit the industry recognised city guilds 2391 you can do napits own version na2391 which involves having as many goes as you can till you pass
just a random grumble but shows exactly what the scheme providers think of the industry - let anyone in and make as much money out of it as possible before it all comes crashing down.
J
Jonny66
The more we talk about this, the more you start to realise how ridiculous and farcical the whole registration thing is...if this was a story in a book or film you'd say "that's stupid I'd never falll for that"
- - - Updated - - -
The more we talk about this, the more you start to realise how ridiculous and farcical the whole registration thing is...if this was a story in a book or film you'd say "that's stupid I'd never fall for that"
- - - Updated - - -
The more we talk about this, the more you start to realise how ridiculous and farcical the whole registration thing is...if this was a story in a book or film you'd say "that's stupid I'd never fall for that"
- May 6, 2008
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- If other, please explain
- n/a
This is to Dan (the Part P supporting man)
Are you actually serious about the improvement of standards since the introduction of Part P,because your experience compared to the experiences of the vast and overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Domestic installation (prior to part P), is that it has done no such thing
If anything the standards of both installation work as whole and certification is woefully inept
You have made defence of a system that I personally believe is destroying all the respect that was at one time the trade of electrician
The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
You made a point of saying that you could not understand anyone not joining the Niceic
I will try and give that understanding,because I am not with the Niceic and never will be with them
This is why I will not be a part of that vile organisation
I am nearing the end of a lifetime working as an electrician,during that time,the trade was respected,it was attained with hard work both manually and in the classroom,it took many years to become skilled ( I wont use the word competent because it has been terribly abused by the scams)yes, I use the derogatory term,because it is well deserved
Electricians were skilled in most disciplines and could work in most. if not all sectors
The Niceic uses the QS system,there is little argument against that system in larger commercial and industrial installation where practicalities of the construction industry makes it acceptable
The Niceic undermined the training and status of electricans who work in the domestic sector by accepting a regulations exam and extra short self created and charged short courses, as suitable means of entry for its Domestic installer creation,this opened the floodgates to any Tom Dick Plumber or Tiler to replace once skilled electricians,after they were deemed competent by the Niceic
The other scams followed suit and the resultant mish mash of people now doing domestic installation is the result,along with the lower standards made inevitable by their actions
The most important abuse the shamed Niceic has done to the electrical industry is to perpetuate the shockingly abused Qualifying supervisor system for Domestic installation
Not only are they permitting a collapse of trade standards by creating this Domestic installer caper,but those untrained inexperienced Niceic "competent" installers can employ myriads of even less experienced un trained "others" to infest this industry supervised by the Tom Dick and Tiler companies
The Niceic exist as the major player in my industry,they are however an embarrasment to the industry,given that I care deeply about what they are doing,I would not join those clowns if were paid by them to do so,my own pride in being an electrican in what was once a well respected trade would not permit me to sell my soul to such enemies of this trade
You may be doing well by the Niceic and the ill thought out system that is Part P,but you will probably be in a fortunate minority
However the price for that success that you state is the destruction of our trade,you have accepted that destruction and seem to welcome it,I on the other hand could never follow suit
I will end with a question for you
Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence ?
I wonder if you are able to do answer yes given that Part P does not require competent individuals
Are you actually serious about the improvement of standards since the introduction of Part P,because your experience compared to the experiences of the vast and overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Domestic installation (prior to part P), is that it has done no such thing
If anything the standards of both installation work as whole and certification is woefully inept
You have made defence of a system that I personally believe is destroying all the respect that was at one time the trade of electrician
The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
You made a point of saying that you could not understand anyone not joining the Niceic
I will try and give that understanding,because I am not with the Niceic and never will be with them
This is why I will not be a part of that vile organisation
I am nearing the end of a lifetime working as an electrician,during that time,the trade was respected,it was attained with hard work both manually and in the classroom,it took many years to become skilled ( I wont use the word competent because it has been terribly abused by the scams)yes, I use the derogatory term,because it is well deserved
Electricians were skilled in most disciplines and could work in most. if not all sectors
The Niceic uses the QS system,there is little argument against that system in larger commercial and industrial installation where practicalities of the construction industry makes it acceptable
The Niceic undermined the training and status of electricans who work in the domestic sector by accepting a regulations exam and extra short self created and charged short courses, as suitable means of entry for its Domestic installer creation,this opened the floodgates to any Tom Dick Plumber or Tiler to replace once skilled electricians,after they were deemed competent by the Niceic
The other scams followed suit and the resultant mish mash of people now doing domestic installation is the result,along with the lower standards made inevitable by their actions
The most important abuse the shamed Niceic has done to the electrical industry is to perpetuate the shockingly abused Qualifying supervisor system for Domestic installation
Not only are they permitting a collapse of trade standards by creating this Domestic installer caper,but those untrained inexperienced Niceic "competent" installers can employ myriads of even less experienced un trained "others" to infest this industry supervised by the Tom Dick and Tiler companies
The Niceic exist as the major player in my industry,they are however an embarrasment to the industry,given that I care deeply about what they are doing,I would not join those clowns if were paid by them to do so,my own pride in being an electrican in what was once a well respected trade would not permit me to sell my soul to such enemies of this trade
You may be doing well by the Niceic and the ill thought out system that is Part P,but you will probably be in a fortunate minority
However the price for that success that you state is the destruction of our trade,you have accepted that destruction and seem to welcome it,I on the other hand could never follow suit
I will end with a question for you
Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence ?
I wonder if you are able to do answer yes given that Part P does not require competent individuals
J
Jonny66
There must be thousands of experienced and knowledgeable electricians around this country like yourself Des56 (and I use the term "electrician" as it should be defined), well where are you all?, you say you care about this industry, well it's the real electricians, like yourself, that should be stepping up and putting a stop to all this crap, speaking out with the knowledge you have.....
L
LlandrilloSpark
Ayrshire spark you LA want shooting for that, I've just spent today re inspecting a flat after a NICEIC approved guy tried to rip a guy clean off with an eicr full of c3 codes and failed it on lack of brown sleeving.....he missed the gaping hole in the cut out fuse carrier
D
Danspark
Hi Des,
Are you actually serious about the improvement of standards since the introduction of Part P,because your experience compared to the experiences of the vast and overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Domestic installation (prior to part P), is that it has done no such thing
If I go to a property that has in the last 7 years had a new kitchen fitted I am now more likely to see that the extraneous conductive parts have been bonded and possibly had a consumer unit change along with appropriate certification and notification, why? because the kitchen firm are aware of the part P requirments and as a ruputable company wish to adhere to them. That said, I can still find myself going to a house that has had a new kitchen installed by the next door neighbor who was happy to have a go at the electrics himself. So, has it improved; yes, completely; no.
The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
This has been pointed it to me by Engineer54 regarding a 17 day 5 week course. I did not know (and will have a look another time) that this existed. Someone else has suggested (but i’m running out of time so can’t go back to look) that NAPIT (i think) do their own testing course over and over until you pass. I (slightly arrogantly) already had a dim view on NAPIT which is why I wonder why anyone that knows there onions would choose to enroll with them other than it being an “easy way in”
You made a point of saying that you could not understand anyone not joining the Niceic
To me the NICEIC was always a well respected voluntary regulatory body and one that i always wished my company to join. with the introduction of part p there were others that appeared such as NAPIT and again i just looked at them as not a comparative body. pre 2005 the local authority would insist that the electrical works on grants were done so by NICEIC approved contractors, although i was well aware of the existence of the ECA and i also new that the council would have to accept this along side the NICEIC but as enrollment and criteria were similar why not go for the regulatory body that had been established since 1956
You may be doing well by the Niceic and the ill thought out system that is Part P,but you will probably be in a fortunate minority
I think that this has become very clear Des, but as originally stated I thought it had gone SOME way to improve the industry for the conscientious electrician. Is it not a fact that less people are working on their own home electrics or less likely to ask a mate to do the work due to the various campaigns run explaining about the implications of Part P and what can and can’t be done.
However the price for that success that you state is the destruction of our trade,you have accepted that destruction and seem to welcome it
I have not accepted any destruction, not if my findings are that jobs i arrive at are more likely to be better than they would have been pre 2005. how can that not be the case, there are a lot of electricians trying to do a good job and less of the mates doing a “favor” just because they are confident to do so.
Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence
I really want to answer this but wasn’t sure i understand where you are going with it? we should all support individual competence (The ability to do something successfully or efficiently) Part P does not require competent individuals? Part P is an electrical safety law of the Building Regulations so it requires compliance, which is where The regulatory bodies come in?
I clearly am in the minority, there are far to many of you that do not like Part P, what it stands for and the regulatory bodies surrounding it. I am glad that I spoke out in stating that I considered it to have done some good for the industry. However I don’t like the idea of people doing a short course and then being allowed to carry out electrical works. I am very proud of my work and it took me a long time to get where I am; I like things to be fair. Just like paying taxes, I pay my taxes but thats ok because we all have to pay our taxes just like I became accepting with the introduction of part P; we all had to comply! That said i did feel sorry for the likes of my dad who had been doing electrical installation works all of his life and then found himself having to go back to college (less accepting than me) but he got through it, worked for another 6 years and is now TRYING to enjoy retirement.
Markc123, no need for an apology, sorry you had a bad day.
although it is clear that not many (if any) agree with me that part p has “improved” the state of home electrics I really would like to know how many do agree... hey ho.
LlandrilloSpark; would you consider helping the customer by lodging a complaint about the report you just described. It was mentioned earlier by someone that if you do you will get nowhere. I’d ask that you follow the procedure correctly and out of interest let us all know the outcome
http://niceic.com/householder/complaints
D Skelton, Good luck with the letter/email
right, now i'm going to put my head back in my air law books and forget about the bashing from this thread. I trust that my difference in opinions doesn't get me the cold shoulder in any future posts.
Dan
Are you actually serious about the improvement of standards since the introduction of Part P,because your experience compared to the experiences of the vast and overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Domestic installation (prior to part P), is that it has done no such thing
If I go to a property that has in the last 7 years had a new kitchen fitted I am now more likely to see that the extraneous conductive parts have been bonded and possibly had a consumer unit change along with appropriate certification and notification, why? because the kitchen firm are aware of the part P requirments and as a ruputable company wish to adhere to them. That said, I can still find myself going to a house that has had a new kitchen installed by the next door neighbor who was happy to have a go at the electrics himself. So, has it improved; yes, completely; no.
The trade has been diluted in these Part P years to become an add on, quick fix badge, for poorly trained persons playing with electrics
This has been pointed it to me by Engineer54 regarding a 17 day 5 week course. I did not know (and will have a look another time) that this existed. Someone else has suggested (but i’m running out of time so can’t go back to look) that NAPIT (i think) do their own testing course over and over until you pass. I (slightly arrogantly) already had a dim view on NAPIT which is why I wonder why anyone that knows there onions would choose to enroll with them other than it being an “easy way in”
You made a point of saying that you could not understand anyone not joining the Niceic
To me the NICEIC was always a well respected voluntary regulatory body and one that i always wished my company to join. with the introduction of part p there were others that appeared such as NAPIT and again i just looked at them as not a comparative body. pre 2005 the local authority would insist that the electrical works on grants were done so by NICEIC approved contractors, although i was well aware of the existence of the ECA and i also new that the council would have to accept this along side the NICEIC but as enrollment and criteria were similar why not go for the regulatory body that had been established since 1956
You may be doing well by the Niceic and the ill thought out system that is Part P,but you will probably be in a fortunate minority
I think that this has become very clear Des, but as originally stated I thought it had gone SOME way to improve the industry for the conscientious electrician. Is it not a fact that less people are working on their own home electrics or less likely to ask a mate to do the work due to the various campaigns run explaining about the implications of Part P and what can and can’t be done.
However the price for that success that you state is the destruction of our trade,you have accepted that destruction and seem to welcome it
I have not accepted any destruction, not if my findings are that jobs i arrive at are more likely to be better than they would have been pre 2005. how can that not be the case, there are a lot of electricians trying to do a good job and less of the mates doing a “favor” just because they are confident to do so.
Do you think it is reasonable to support individual competence
I really want to answer this but wasn’t sure i understand where you are going with it? we should all support individual competence (The ability to do something successfully or efficiently) Part P does not require competent individuals? Part P is an electrical safety law of the Building Regulations so it requires compliance, which is where The regulatory bodies come in?
I clearly am in the minority, there are far to many of you that do not like Part P, what it stands for and the regulatory bodies surrounding it. I am glad that I spoke out in stating that I considered it to have done some good for the industry. However I don’t like the idea of people doing a short course and then being allowed to carry out electrical works. I am very proud of my work and it took me a long time to get where I am; I like things to be fair. Just like paying taxes, I pay my taxes but thats ok because we all have to pay our taxes just like I became accepting with the introduction of part P; we all had to comply! That said i did feel sorry for the likes of my dad who had been doing electrical installation works all of his life and then found himself having to go back to college (less accepting than me) but he got through it, worked for another 6 years and is now TRYING to enjoy retirement.
Markc123, no need for an apology, sorry you had a bad day.
although it is clear that not many (if any) agree with me that part p has “improved” the state of home electrics I really would like to know how many do agree... hey ho.
LlandrilloSpark; would you consider helping the customer by lodging a complaint about the report you just described. It was mentioned earlier by someone that if you do you will get nowhere. I’d ask that you follow the procedure correctly and out of interest let us all know the outcome
http://niceic.com/householder/complaints
D Skelton, Good luck with the letter/email
right, now i'm going to put my head back in my air law books and forget about the bashing from this thread. I trust that my difference in opinions doesn't get me the cold shoulder in any future posts.
Dan
J
Jonny66
I think this is becoming confused with compliance with the Building Regulations such as part P, rather than the competent persons schemes and how they behave....compliance with part P is usually guaranteed if compliant with BS7671. My problem and the problem of most, i believe, is the antics of the bodies set up to oversee self certification and how they have turned this into a pay and your in industry, rather than basing it on qualifications and experience.
Elecsa having now gone in with the ESC and NICEIC seem to have dropped the "approved to do domestic work" and adopted the NICEIC domestic installer approach. The only possible reason for this is to raise extra income in the future by charging electricians to have the "Approved " status, but what is this NIC Approved status?? Aproved to do what? conform to Building Regs?? conform to BS7671?? if so what is DI status?? nearly conforming??
Elecsa having now gone in with the ESC and NICEIC seem to have dropped the "approved to do domestic work" and adopted the NICEIC domestic installer approach. The only possible reason for this is to raise extra income in the future by charging electricians to have the "Approved " status, but what is this NIC Approved status?? Aproved to do what? conform to Building Regs?? conform to BS7671?? if so what is DI status?? nearly conforming??
D
Danspark
Hey,
ELECSA are part of the ECA group. ELECSA is a competent person scheme (cps) This scheme means that approved contractors are able to self-certify their work. This is required for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling. If ELECSA and the NICEIC are getting into bed together I don't think it will be long until ELECSA approved contractors or an electrical contractor approved by ELECSA have a name change, possibly ELECSA registered electrician or similar, in order to harmonies with the NICEIC’s approved contractors. They won’t want a conflict of terminology. Remember, an approved contractor with the NICEIC has nothing to do with being registered as a domestic installer and the two should not be confused (you gain domestic installer status free of charge with the NICEIC as you are considered competent due to the criteria of being an NICEIC approved contractor)
any the wiser? me neither.
Dan
- Nov 24, 2010
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I should hope not. You seem like an intellegent fella, and although I don't agree with a lot of what you say (some I might add I do agree with), I will defend to the death your right to say it
Whether we agree with you or not is down to us at the end of the day, you're entitled to your opinion and we welcome any reasoned and well constructed addition to any thread, no matter how misguided it might be
J
Jonny66
Somebody? what is the difference in reality apart from the fee you pay? do you need extra quals? extra experience?
J
Jonny66
I'm not the best electrician in the world, probably not even the second best (Ha Ha) but is it really down to how much you pay??
D
Danspark
Sorry jonny. She has that look in her eyes, the one that tells me I'm in trouble if I carry on doing what I'm doing. I'll reply in detail tomorrow.
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