Adding sockets to a radial circuit in different directions

[finlamit]

Hi.

I have a radial circuit supplying electricity to the garage (part of the house). It's on a 20amp breaker, uses 2.5mm cable. It currently only supplies a single socket. Before anyone asks, its 100% a radial circuit. 6 months ago I had an electrician install a new consumer unit, and the testing/certificate that followed states this.

There is a single socket on the circuit. Annoyingly, the socket is at the back of the garage and right in the middle of the wall.

What I would like to do is keep this socket. Then... come out of the socket on the left, and put a socket on the left wall, and out of the right and put a socket on the right wall. I cant continue the cable round in a single direction as the garage door and other things are is in the way. Coming off in both directions from this socket it the only option.

Would this be ok? An alternative I had was to come out of the the top of the socket into a junction box (30A), then the two cables come out of this... best described as a T junction.

In case anyone wondered, there will not be any high load appliances used. One will supply the chargers for my tool batteries, the other will be Christmas lights!

Thanks in advance.

F

 

[Aaron b]

There's no problem with connecting a circuit like that.

 

[finlamit]

There's no problem with connecting a circuit like that.

Thanks.

Another thing to add is that I am not a qualified electrician. Would I legal be allowed to do this myself. Would it be the same as spurring off a ring circuit (which I am allowed to do)?

F

 

[brianmoooore]

There is no legal reason to stop you doing this work yourself, as long as you are competent, but it still needs a minor works certificate to be completed, along with the testing to get the results to enter on that certificate.
Junction boxes are to be avoided if possible, and you should be able to connect a total of three sets of 2.5mm2 wires to a good quality 13A socket, especially a double.

 

[Aaron b]

As long as you are not in a zone in a bathroom or adding a whole new circuit you are alright in England. You can download part p of the building regs for free. You still need to comply with regulations regardless. You probably won't be able to double up the cores with three in one terminal and you need to make sure it's gripping them well.

 

[timhoward]

Let's not confuse the two questions of legally being able to do the work, and the requirement (or not) to notify the work.

Would I legal be allowed to do this myself. Would it be the same as spurring off a ring circuit (which I am allowed to do)?

“No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger, or where appropriate, injury, unless he/she possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such a degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.”
(Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EAWR) – Regulation 16)

If you meet the bit in bold then it's legal for you to do the work.
As @brianmoooore said all electrical work should be tested and documented and if you're not providing a new circuit the Minor Works Certificate can be used instead of the more complex Electrical Installation Certificate.

The other factor mentioned by @Aaron b is notification; there is some work that the local authority building control people need to be told about, and as he said that is generally bath/shower-room work, a new circuit, or replacing a consumer unit. That clearly doesn't apply to this instance.

 

[buzzlightyear]

There is no legal reason to stop you doing this work yourself, as long as you are competent

It's OK saying that, but if he electcutes him self or somebody who picks the phone then.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's OK saying that, but if he electcutes him self or somebody who picks the phone then.

If he electrocutes himself, or anyone else, then he's clearly not competent.

 

[timhoward]

It's OK saying that, but if he electcutes him self or somebody who picks the phone then.

If he's dead, he won't have to prove he's competent....!

 

[buzzlightyear]

If he's dead, he won't have to prove he's competent....!

On his head stone it will say he tried.

 

[finlamit]

So basically what you are saying is, I can do the work... But need a minor works certificate... Which I need to get from a qualified electrician... Who probably will resent the fact I didn't ask them to do it in the first place..??

 

[brianmoooore]

Again, anyone can complete a minor works certificate as long as they are competent to do so. The regulations do not say how you are to demonstrate this competence, but you will still need several hundred pounds worth of calibrated test equipment to complete it.

 

[James]

Have you considered an extension lead?
Christmas’s lights are not likely to be in use all year round!!

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

If he's dead, he won't have to prove he's competent....!

Jesus man state of you lot in here, it's an extra socket ffs.

 

[timhoward]

Jesus man state of you lot in here, it's an extra socket ffs.

I was actually trying to gently say Buzz was over reacting, it obviously came over wrong.
The OP asked whether it was legal, we said yes, crack on. We also said it should have a MWC by rights.
I assumed the OP would read between the lines that there won't be a long (or short) line of people checking it actually gets a MWC....

 

[LastManOnline]

Junction boxes are to be avoided if possible,

Agree in principle. But in this case the JB will be in the garage so won't look awful and will be accessible. For an amateur I would imagine connecting three 2.5,s into a JB and looping a 2.5 out to the socket would be easier than connecting the three 2.5,s into the socket

 

[pc1966]

As above, if you are competent then adding sockets to this 20A radial is fine. However, you must have some means of testing the results. Spending the £500-1500 that an electrician would on a MFT is somewhat out of the question, but at the very least get something like this to check the socket is wired correctly and the earth loop impedance is at least sensibly low:

TIS Socket Tester With Loop & RCD Check

A pocket sized checker for indicating loop impedance, socket polarity and RCD 30mA are all ok. Indication is by LED's and buzzer. An ideal unit for initial "checking out" of a 13A socket and will advise if the circuit is ok, needs attention, or needs urgent attention. An ideal product for...

www.toolstation.com

I also would agree with @LastManOnline to avoid 3 leads in socket terminals, they should go but you need care that all 3 are fully engaged and gripped. Putting a junction box in the garage should be fine, if it were me I would use something like the 3-way or 5-way Wago 221 series terminals for the connections in something like a Wiska 407 box. You can also get glands like these for T&E cable for a good mechanical support:

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/british-general-plastic-cable-gland-kit-20mm/8797p

20mm Entry Gland for 2.5 & 4mm Flat T & E | Wiska (WKP20F254)

 

[LastManOnline]

Let's not confuse the two questions of legally being able to do the work, and the requirement (or not) to notify the work.


“No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger, or where appropriate, injury, unless he/she possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such a degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.”
(Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EAWR) – Regulation 16)

If you meet the bit in bold then it's legal for you to do the work.
As @brianmoooore said all electrical work should be tested and documented and if you're not providing a new circuit the Minor Works Certificate can be used instead of the more complex Electrical Installation Certificate.

A very informative thread for me this. Can I conclude that in the UK an unskilled person can theoretically buy a multimeter, a set of electricians tools etc and then rewire and certify a house?

 

[DPG]

A very informative thread for me this. Can I conclude that in the UK an unskilled person can theoretically buy a multimeter, a set of electricians tools etc and then rewire and certify a house?

No because they would not have the equipment (which would need to be an MFT, not a multimeter) or the ability to do the testing or complete the installation cert. Also a new consumer would need notifying to building control (admittedly a non-electrician can sometimes do this)

 

[timhoward]

I would like to slightly clarify a statement I made:

The OP asked whether it was legal, we said yes, crack on.

I did not intend to convey it is legal in all cases.
I intended to convey that it is legal subject to the persons knowledge and experience, as per my my earlier quote from the EAWR.
(My impression is that the OP has the ability to do this safely and competently)

A very informative thread for me this. Can I conclude that in the UK an unskilled person can theoretically buy a multimeter, a set of electricians tools etc and then rewire and certify a house?

A multi-meter won't be accurate enough in terms of resolution for continuity tests and won't be able to test earth loop impedance, insulation resistance, or time RCD activation/operation. As mentioned above the cost of such tools and knowledge to use them safely is a barrier to most people entertaining this.
Of course anyone can theoretically do anything, but the EAWR which is the statutory legal document does indicate knowledge and experience is required.

That's before you get onto the building regs requirements, as a new consumer unit and new circuits are notifiable works, which generally means membership of one of the competent person schemes and they have their own entry requirements which are getting harder not easier.
So it isn't as simple as you suggest.

 

[LastManOnline]

No because they would not have the equipment (which would need to be an MFT, not a multimeter) or the ability to do the testing or complete the installation cert. Also a new consumer would need notifying to building control (admittedly a non-electrician can sometimes do this)

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

 

[pc1966]

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

That is my understanding of the law, however, for local building control they would normally require membership of a CPS to establish competence, otherwise they would require (and probably arrange at the requester's expense) a 3rd party to certify the work.

But not all LBC are the same and some are OK with electricians who are not in a CPS if experience, qualifications, etc, are good. For example, a few industrial/commercial sparks are not members as they don't feel the fees are justified and they are not a requirement outside of domestic work. Competence is always required! (Plus the usual test equipment, insurance, generation of certificates, etc)

 

[DPG]

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

Yes, they can. But anyone who is competent enough to test and fill in installation certs is probably an electrician. Or in rare cases a very keen DIYer.

I think that's been made clear.

 

[timhoward]

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

Yes. If you accept that part of being competent is knowing what equipment is required to obtain and understand the detailed data that the certificate requires and being able to access and use such equipment. Including knowing what test results constitute a safe installation or a dangerous situation.

If you are competent you can do electrical work and issue certificates.
In a parallel universe certain work needs notifying to building control as per earlier posts. If you avoid such work and are competent you can do what you like.

 

[LastManOnline]

No because they would not have the equipment (which would need to be an MFT, not a multimeter)

Apologies for stating "multimeter" instead of MFT. It caused an un-necessary distraction

Also a new consumer would need notifying to building control (admittedly a non-electrician can sometimes do this)

I am trying to get my head around the UK system. When you state "admittedly a non-electrician can do this" I, m left with the impression there are a number of grey areas in the regulation of electrical work in the UK and I, m keen to understand them.

 

[DPG]

Apologies for stating "multimeter" instead of MFT. It caused an un-necessary distraction

I am trying to get my head around the UK system. When you state "admittedly a non-electrician can do this" I, m left with the impression there are a number of grey areas in the regulation of electrical work in the UK and I, m keen to understand them.

Anyone competent can do electrical work. But the work must be tested and then either a minor works or an installation cert should be completed.

Some work (new circuits, consumer unit swaps, etc) also needs notifying to building control. For this you either need to be in a scheme such as the NIC etc. or pay the council a fee.

 

[LastManOnline]

Anyone competent can do electrical work. But the work must be tested and then either a minor works or an installation cert should be completed.

Some work (new circuits, consumer unit swaps, etc) also needs notifying to building control. For this you either need to be in a scheme such as the NIC etc. or pay the council a fee.

So from the above can I conclude that in principle someone with no formal electrical training and who is not a member of any scheme, but is a capable diyer.. can do the work, certify (having bought an MFT) and pay the council a fee (as he is not joined any scheme) and is done and dusted??

 

[DPG]

So from the above can I conclude that in principle someone with no formal electrical training and who is not a member of any scheme, but is a capable diyer.. can do the work, certify (having bought an MFT) and pay the council a fee (as he is not joined any scheme) and is done and dusted??

Theoretically. But how would someone know how to perform IR, RCD, Zs, PFC tests etc. Let alone have an MFT and know how to use it. And to be competent you would need all this.

 

[timhoward]

So from the above can I conclude that in principle someone with no formal electrical training and who is not a member of any scheme, but is a capable diyer.. can do the work, certify (having bought an MFT) and pay the council a fee (as he is not joined any scheme) and is done and dusted??

It's also worth noting that
1) the council will charge at least a couple of hundred quid for the privilege.
2) some councils don't offer the service at all even though they are supposed to.
I know a very capable DIY'er who attempted to use this service in the Dudley area and got no engagement at all from the council.

From a sparks point of view, as a scheme member it costs me £3.60 to notify the work.
So if you do enough domestic work it pays to be in the scheme as otherwise the high cost has to be passed onto the customer, leading them to someone else's quote so you simply don't get the work.

 

[LastManOnline]

Theoretically.

That was in fact the original question I asked. Appreciate your answer.

But how would someone know how to perform IR, RCD, Zs, PFC tests etc. Let alone have an MFT and know how to use it. And to be competent you would need all this.

Of course that is true. But we all occasionally come across individual's who fall in to the "overconfident and undertrained" department and given an opening are happy to take it. Your system would benefit from losing off that loophole.

 

[brianmoooore]

There's no legal definition of an electrician in the UK.

 

[DPG]

That was in fact the original question I asked. Appreciate your answer.

Of course that is true. But we all occasionally come across individual's who fall in to the "overconfident and undertrained" department and given an opening are happy to take it. Your system would benefit from losing off that loophole.

You'll never stop it. I know a guy who does his own gas work. Illegal, but as you say, over confident DIY will always happen.

 

[timhoward]

Of course that is true. But we all occasionally come across individual's who fall in to the "overconfident and undertrained" department and given an opening are happy to take it. Your system would benefit from losing off that loophole.

I think this is a little academic as such a person wont' be concerned with certificates or notification in the first place. It's very easy to make an electrical job 'work'. That's all the customer will care about.
We described how the system is supposed to work, and all we can do as conscientious sparks is to crack on doing it right. There's rarely any comeback for those that don't do it right unless something terrible happens.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's also not an offence in the UK to do work that is controlled by the building regs., without notifying building control first. The offence occurs if the work undertaken is not done to comply with the regs.

 

[Aaron b]

I would normally strongly agree and think having an ecir done should be held in higher regard. I also appreciate that most problems are caused by amateurs but considering that the board has just been changed it's unlikely to cause an issue adding a couple of sockets. There's a lot of electricians that won't both testing or certifying.

 

[brianmoooore]

You'll never stop it. I know a guy who does his own gas work. Illegal, but as you say, over confident DIY will always happen.

To the best of my knowledge, it's not. Doing someone else's gas work would be.

 

[timhoward]

I would normally strongly agree and think having an ecir done should be held in higher regard. I also appreciate that most problems are caused by amateurs but considering that the board has just been changed it's unlikely to cause an issue adding a couple of sockets. There's a lot of electricians that won't both testing or certifying.

Sure - we rather drifted off from the 2 garage sockets into a more philosophical debate!

 

[DPG]

To the best of my knowledge, it's not. Doing someone else's gas work would be.

Mmm, you might have a point there. My theoretical 'friend' may also do gas work for other people as well though!

 

[LastManOnline]

Sure - we rather drifted off

Drifted.. yes. My fault

from the 2 garage sockets into a more philosophical debate!

Philosophical? Not in my view. Its been established that a competent diyer (or an individual who regards himself as) can in fact wire and certify an installation in the UK. I was, nt aware of that. That is a situation that is, nt possible (practically or theoretically) in the ROI system. That's not a criticism by the way, just a comparison.
I,m keenly interested in the differences in EU countries electrical. systems and appreciate the insight this thread has provided.

 

[timhoward]

@LastManOnline I'm equally interested how it's impossible in the ROI.
If I went over there, and added a socket and did a good job that didn't make it obvious it had been added, how would anyone find out, and what would the consequences be.

 

[DPG]

@LastManOnline I'm equally interested how it's impossible in the ROI.
If I went over there, and added a socket and did a good job that didn't make it obvious it had been added, how would anyone find out, and what would the consequences be.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[LastManOnline]

@LastManOnline I'm equally interested how it's impossible in the ROI.
If I went over there, and added a socket and did a good job that didn't make it obvious it had been added, how would anyone find out, and what would the consequences be.

Yes. Of course you could wire a socket or light etc. In fact you are entitled to do that. But it would not be possible for you to " wire and certify" as only registered electricians can obtain, complete and return wiring certificates.

 

[DPG]

Yes. Of course you could wire a socket or light etc. In fact you are entitled to do that. But it would not be possible for you to " wire and certify" as only registered electricians can obtain, complete and return wiring certificates.

So there will be plenty of people just doing work under the radar then. Same as here.

 

[westward10]

This thread has drifted way off topic. The OP asked whether he can legally carry out these works, the answer is yes. Assuming this is their own private dwelling it needs no notification or Certification, they can do as they wish but I assume they have long been scared off.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

A very informative thread for me this. Can I conclude that in the UK an unskilled person can theoretically buy a multimeter, a set of electricians tools etc and then rewire and certify a house?

In the UK anybody can carry out any electrical work.

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

This thread has drifted way off topic. The OP asked whether he can legally carry out these works, the answer is yes. Assuming this is their own private dwelling it needs no notification or Certification, they can do as they wish but I assume they have long been scared off.

Is it right that if it's your own dwelling you don't need to notify or certify at all? Is this for any work or just non-notifiable?

Never knew this if it's true.

 

[brianmoooore]

Notifiable work still has to be notified, but there's nothing much that BC can do about it if you don't.

 

[LastManOnline]

In the UK anybody can carry out any electrical work.

That's what I deduce from the thread so far, PROVIDING they are competent, apply the regs and notify notifiable work

 

[BiddeldyBwah]

That's what I deduce from the thread so far, PROVIDING they are competent, apply the regs and notify notifiable work

The reality of the situation is that anyone can carry out the work and as long as nobody gets seriously hurt there are never any consequences.

 

[nicebutdim]

That's what I deduce from the thread so far, PROVIDING they are competent, apply the regs and notify notifiable work

As an aside, have there been any convictions of homeowners who carried out electrical work in IE? Specifically I'm thinking of situations where no one was injured and the conviction was solely due to their not being registered to carry out the work in question.