Certification

[Imperia]

Hello all,

Just wondering what your thoughts are on the following questions. I am new to the forum and thought you could shed some light on my issues.

OK... My company have been asked to provide a installation certificate for the completion of a few flats. We did not do the work another spark did (if you could call him a spark).

We have carried out tests and treated it as test and inspect. We then provided the customer with a testing cert not a installation cert as we did not do the works.

He has said the building inspector can not sign off the work until a new installation cert has been provided by the company who carried out the work.

I use tysoft for certs and have done for 5 years or so but I can not remember the domestic cert to have a design, installation and testing sheet on it....

What are your thoughts on this? Should we provide a installation cert or just a testing cert? Just to let you know we had to make some changes to some circuits as they did not comply to regs ect and had some faults but that has all been sorted now.

Many thanks

 

[yellowvanman]

You can't produce an EIC as you didn't do the work.

If you talked to Building Control first and explained the situation they may have accepted this. Why couldn't the installation company provide a cert?

I've done this before when the previous company left the job after 1st fix when the builder got thrown off the job, explained to building control that I would provide an EICR and it would be up to them to sign off. They accepted this.

 

[davesparks]

You can't produce an EIC as you didn't do the work.

Yes you can, this is why the EIC has seperate sections for the designer, installer and tester. So that different companies can do each part and sign for it seperately

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Wouldn't the multi sign EIC need to havery the installer as qualified electrician.
Other wise wouldn't that drop in to the third party part

 

[Imperia]

Yes I know there is separate parts but that's on a commercial cert not domestic. I'm sure this happens all the time in the industry

 

[Risteard]

Yes I know there is separate parts but that's on a commercial cert not domestic.

It's on any Electrical Installation Certificate. Where is the distinction?

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Looking on the wiring regs, that domestic/industry stair it being all wiring
The EIC is just the multi sign form, in.GN3 there is two EIC the.other being the one man band version were designer installer and tester are the Same guy.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Yes you can, this is why the EIC has seperate sections for the designer, installer and tester. So that different companies can do each part and sign for it seperately

But the original installer and designer would still have to sign the EIC. The OP could only sign the 'tester' part, so i'm assuming the EIC (Form 2) couldn't be issued until all parts were signed.

Yes I know there is separate parts but that's on a commercial cert not domestic. I'm sure this happens all the time in the industry

The 2 different EICR's can both be used for domestic although I expect Form 1 is used far more commonly than Form 2.

I'm sure you could make a nice bit of money from just testing and then issuing a new EIC, and if you that is your main priority 'to make money' then I guess the decision has been made. If your priority is 'safety' then you wouldn't issue an EIC as you are signing to say 'absolutely everything' about the install has been designed, installed and tested to BS7671 which you wouldn't know as you didn't design and install.

I don't know what the 'industry norm' is in this situation and I dont think that really matters (I'd like to believe that most would refuse to issue the EIC), its about what you feel is right.

 

[joehat]

I always issue a mwc if all is in place and all i need to do is connect the sockets lights , test continuity and IR and do final connection.
And then test Zs.

As this is all you can do if you haven't designed and installed it, so at leasts it shows the tests are good.

if they need it to prove more then i would do an EICR.

 

[joehat]

And then I'm covering my back and only putting my name to what I've actually done.

 

[Plonker 3]

I always issue a mwc if all is in place and all i need to do is connect the sockets lights , test continuity and IR and do final connection.
And then test Zs.

As this is all you can do if you haven't designed and installed it, so at leasts it shows the tests are good.

if they need it to prove more then i would do an EICR.

And then I'm covering my back and only putting my name to what I've actually done.

BS 7671requires a EIC for all new circuits

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

BS 7671requires a EIC for all new circuits

Part P 2013
3.6 Within 5 days of completing the work, the installer must notify the registered third-party certified who, subject to the resuslts of the inspection and testing being satisfactory, should then complete an electrical installation condition report and give it to the person ordering the work.

NOTE: The Electrical Installation Condition Report should be the model BS7671 form or one developed specifically for Part P purpose.

 

[Plonker 3]

Part P 2013
3.6 Within 5 days of completing the work, the installer must notify the registered third-party certified who, subject to the resuslts of the inspection and testing being satisfactory, should then complete an electrical installation condition report and give it to the person ordering the work.

NOTE: The Electrical Installation Condition Report should be the model BS7671 form or one developed specifically for Part P purpose.

So Part P now supercedes BS7671 does it?

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Both Regulations .. ONE BY the GOVERMENT the People WHO RULE this country
and one by the IET

This is TALKING about THIRD PARTY, as this is NOT HIS CIRCUIT
So he can NOT do a EIC


as a Mentor i would expect pointing out Facts were things are.

 

[Plonker 3]

Both Regulations .. ONE BY the GOVERMENT the People WHO RULE this country
and one by the IET

This is TALKING about THIRD PARTY, as this is NOT HIS CIRCUIT
So he can NOT do a EIC


as a Mentor i would expect pointing out Facts were things are.

Read sections 1.1 and 1.2 of the approved part P document.

 

[Risteard]

Just to be clear if signing the Inspector part of an Electrical Installation Certificate, really inspection should have been ongoing during the work. It should be remembered that inspection precedes testing, and indeed is more important than testing.

So if much of the installation is now concealed then there is a problem even with a three-part certificate.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

1.1 has to be Designed and Installed to BS7671:2015 (now)

Guessng this is the point you want
1.2 Sufficient information should be provided to ensure that the people can operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation with reasonable safety.

The information should comprise items listed in BS7671 and other appropriate information including:

a) Electrical installion Certificates OR reports describing the installation and giving details of the work carried out.
<Would a EICR be a report describing the installation (Section D: Extent and Limitations of the Inspection and Testing) Also (Section E: Summary of the Condition of the Installation) Make it CLEAR its a THIRD PARTY INSTALLATION and that YOU did NOT install it)

b) Permanent labels, for example on the earth connections and bonds, and on the items of electrical equipment such as consumer units and residual current devices (RCDs)

c) Operation instructions and logbooks

d) for unsually large or complex installations only, detailed plans.

<if we take B as Read, i hope they did there is a water supply to the Taps in a Kitchen, if its in the coming or not, i do not know>
<C its a Kitchen shouldnt need a LOGBOOK i hope, and D shouldnt be that LARGE and COMPLEX>

 

[joehat]

BS 7671requires a EIC for all new circuits

Hi Dillb

So if the designer/installer wasn't coming back for what ever reason and you had no way of contacting him/her, what would you do/recommended to customer? Apart from opening up all walls ect to check installation?

 

[Plonker 3]

BS 7671requires a EIC for all new circuits

Hi Dillb

So if the designer/installer wasn't coming back for what ever reason and you had no way of contacting him/her, what would you do/recommended to customer? Apart from opening up all walls ect to check installation?

Tell them to contact trading standards or the scam provider.

Also point out to them that although "Dave" down the pub was alot cheaper. Now that LABC need the paperwork or their new build will be dismantled it doesnt seem such a good idea now.

 

[joehat]

Tell them to contact trading standards or the scam provider.

Also point out to them that although "Dave" down the pub was alot cheaper. Now that LABC need the paperwork or their new build will be dismantled it doesnt seem such a good idea now.

Its easy to say that, but their are reasons beyond a bad electrician, and its no ones gonna day tear it down, start again.

I would surely do a full detailed EICR. And would class this as a good solution, if this was in a private house the no one would know apart from them, so surely they would rather an EICR rather than nothing, at least it would test highlight things, eg bad IR Or poor continuity over the max zs ect.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

All electrical work in dwelling must be carried out in line with Part P of the Building Regulations. From 6 April 2014 a person who is registered with a third party certification scheme for electrical installations in dwellings will be able to check domestic electrical work that is undertaken by others and certify that it is compliant with the building regulations

https://www.gov.uk/third-party-certification-schemes-for-domestic-electrical-work

Think only Napit/Stroma let you register for a 3rd Party Certification Scheme more ££££

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Its easy to say that, but their are reasons beyond a bad electrician, and its no ones gonna day tear it down, start again.

I would surely do a full detailed EICR. And would class this as a good solution, if this was in a private house the no one would know apart from them, so surely they would rather an EICR rather than nothing, at least it would test highlight things, eg bad IR Or poor continuity over the max zs ect.

I agree, I cant see an inspector stating that all the work needs to be removed. I would assume in practice the inspector will have to make do with an EICR, that is the only reasonable solution in the event the previous electrician cannot be contacted.

This must happen a fair bit. I expect in practice the 'second' electrician just signs off the work and the inspector is none the wiser. If that's what they want to do then so be it, I feel it's taking a gamble and is also wrong.

 

[joehat]

I have contacted NICEIC and will report back when i have a response from them.

 

[sinewove]

I think the NICEIC want nothing to do with the 3rd party scheme and rightly so.
SW.

 

[joehat]

Niceic have said i quote if already live and in use then it would have to be an EICR AND if its just sockets ect left to install and is not yet live, then you would do an EIC but with lim to what you have and havent done to cover your back, they said that its very highly unlikely that building control would ever say rip it out and start again, they would most likely say as above.