Mouse been in a wiring loom.

[Czar]

Gents (and any ladies)

I have a B8 3.0ltr avant se. It's a lovely motor. Just purchased, sold as seen.

The cars been ace for 3 weeks then I adjusted the passenger wing mirror and got a dynamic steering fault light come up. 10 seconds later a EPS light. Now they won't go. Looking at the car there are a few nibbles in the air intake plenum , nothing gone through but not to say there couldn't be issues deeper in the loom. A specialist in bradford had a quick look and suggested main dealer after his diagnostic said the dynamic steering module had failed. He spoke to a pal at Audi who said they never replaced one and couldn't tell him where it was because they never replaced them, "they don't fail".

So today main dealer on canal Rd :Audi. I told the lady the above and that it might need wiring looking at. She rang me after 8 hours and told me the same back, but that it could be very costly trying to iD a loom break.

I am a controls engineer. All be it building but I know how this stuff works but I don't know about the Audi diagnostic. I am presuming the port in car is into the Cars ecu which I am assuming at the moment that mine is not communicating with the dynamic steering module and as such can't analyse the steering position which is causing the EPS failure. Any good ideas welcome. Tomorrow I am going to have to suggest a direction to Audi. Replace the loom? Pull the dash out? Am I right in assuming Audi cannot connect to each module or even plug into the connectors at the modules to test the wiring for continuity?

Anyone know where to get the wiring schematic for a motor like this? Any really good auto electricians on this site local to leeds? This isn't just a plug in and fault clear. It's a rodent hunt.

 

[Wilko]

Hello Czar and Welcome to the Forum.
Sorry to hear of you troubles. I'm sure that Audi will have a specific diagnosis available from their test gear. Whether that's 100% correct is another thing, unfortunately. If you're not been given a specific fault that they'll chase, I'd be very reluctant to tell them what they should do. Myself, I'd go to another service department. Cheers.

 

[Specialist]

Hi: I normally find a Google search pays dividends when i want unusual manuals, may have to buy from the states or Aus though.

 

[Pat H]

I'd be tempted to do a detailed visual inspection. Pull panels off and expose the loom. If its been nibbled there will be signs.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

Would ElsaWin be of any use to you?

 

[Specialist]

Dealer grade manuals are showing as available from www.emanualsonline.com
Might be an idea to join some of the specialist audi forums as well, normally a good source of info & advice on good techs.

 

[ruston]

If you have rodent problems this could be anywhere in the harness.
They usually get in the vent ducts to eat the insulation.
Usually they chew the harness for access , so with a bit of luck it may be isolated.
If the wing mirror is the common denominator I would be looking in the area of the wheelarch up the door frame.

 

[Czar]

Cheers fellas.

I have spoken to the master tech at Audi. He seems confident he can find the fault in a day. He is starting his investigations by the wheel arch. Horrible little mouse.

I have asked him to photo document his investigation in-case its ongoing and I run out of cash.

 

[ruston]

Good luck .
That is one of their favourite places , that and the hidden open grill vent in most cars , usually at the rear near the bumper , or behind the rear wings/quarter panels.

 

[UNG]

Have a look at the Rosstech VAG-Com software you would need to buy a VAG interface (£15 - 20) the free version gives you access to most of the diagnostics but it's not too expensive to upgrade if you have a need for the advanced diagnostics

 

[Specialist]

Would have been nice to know how this turned out & if it actually got resolved.

 

[Czar]

Hey.

I have left the car with Audi. Spoke to the master tech there. Instructed them to base the wires from ecu to ecu to get the Comms working. First place they will check is the wheel arch to confirm the brake ecu is Comms up to the main ecu. I am on holiday so left with them. Told me to keep me updated and not go mad with the costs although £100/hr inc vat isn't a good rate. I figured thy had the skills to both trace the cables and put hjbgs back together with some care. I'll definitely update on both the fix and cost. Forums are worthless if it's a dead end thread. I asked them to print the wiring schematic and mark up the ok/ checked cables so if I had run out of cash I would at least have a progress report. The girl at Audi was skeptics about them sharing the wiring schematic but I will push like buggery for it if I run out of cash before a fix. Will keep you posted.

 

[Specialist]

Cheers for the update buddy, appreciate it. Where they think they're skills warrant a £100 an hour price tag is beyond me.
Anyway enjoy your holiday.

 

[ruston]

To be honest with the gear they have they should know in a crack what is not communicating. They are vary secretive about sharing information , unless you know someone.
It is highway robbery.

 

[Specialist]

In all honesty, I never entrust diagnostics to any dealer. What I can't do myself, goes to my tame mechanic or if he says it's above his paygrade then to one of the 2 diagnostic gurus we have locally. Never know them fail even where the dealers have given up.
The Audi forums may be your best friend for schematics.
Just did a Google search & factory-manuals.com are showing the avant b8 service manual.

 

[ruston]

To be fair though the available readers cannot read all the codes that the manufactuers/dealers can. They only give you what the OBD requirements are.

 

[UNG]

Cheers for the update buddy, appreciate it. Where they think they're skills warrant a £100 an hour price tag is beyond me.
Anyway enjoy your holiday.

Something has to pay for the service manager, dealer principal and the evermore fancy showroom refurbs every few years
The guy on the tools will be lucky to get 10% of the hourly charge yet he is the one that has to decipher the fault codes to fix the fault although there is not to many of them that can do it without adopting a replace everything stance

To be honest with the gear they have they should know in a crack what is not communicating. They are vary secretive about sharing information , unless you know someone.
It is highway robbery.

A lot of it is all the gear no idea, I have heard stories of dealers quoting over £2000 to change several parts when a second opinion from an independent resulted in one part being changed and a bill of £150 and the problem solved

To be fair though the available readers cannot read all the codes that the manufactuers/dealers can. They only give you what the OBD requirements are.

There is plenty of competitively priced third party software and the interfaces available for a lot of vehicles that are as good if not better than what the dealers have. I have a few setups for checking my current and past vehicles, having got the information from the ECU's it is how you interpret it to effect the repair.

Single DTC's are easy to fix the issue comes when you get a list of DTC's and you have to work out the cascade of the faults and which DTC is the root cause the others

 

[Czar]

Yeah. I want the diagnostic tools. I have diagnostic software galore to interrogate building control systems and to integrate anything to anything through bespoke software drivers. The internet of things doesn't extend to cars yet. People fear cars being hacked. Why tie a car to another system.

In Dubai they supposedly have fire systems linked to both the fire station and then to traffic management smart roads. If a fire is detected the available service sets off and the smart roads clear a lane to the firey building. Getting people to think about the potential of integrating systems and how we can take benefit of one system and utilise it for another is tricky. Not everyone knows the benefit of other systems so at the moment we're just playing with ideas.

 

[ruston]

Something has to pay for the service manager, dealer principal and the evermore fancy showroom refurbs every few years
The guy on the tools will be lucky to get 10% of the hourly charge yet he is the one that has to decipher the fault codes to fix the fault although there is not to many of them that can do it without adopting a replace everything stance



A lot of it is all the gear no idea, I have heard stories of dealers quoting over £2000 to change several parts when a second opinion from an independent resulted in one part being changed and a bill of £150 and the problem solved



There is plenty of competitively priced third party software and the interfaces available for a lot of vehicles that are as good if not better than what the dealers have. I have a few setups for checking my current and past vehicles, having got the information from the ECU's it is how you interpret it to effect the repair.

Single DTC's are easy to fix the issue comes when you get a list of DTC's and you have to work out the cascade of the faults and which DTC is the root cause the others

I agree with you , the garage that I do some work for on a ' keep me busy ' basis , as I am just about knackered lol has the latest top of the range diagnostic equipment, and as you say a lot of the faults shown are a cascade of accumulated problems, when in fact the problem is somewhere else. There have recently been cases despite his all singing all dancing machine He has had to have the ecu read on the dealers equipment becuse the fault hadt shown up on it, repaired, but the code could not be cleared.
The vehicle was a Peugeot

 

[Specialist]

To be fair though the available readers cannot read all the codes that the manufactuers/dealers can. They only give you what the OBD requirements are.

Take a look at Gendan in Swansea, their diagnostic kit is pretty good.
Problem with manufacturers kit, is the people on the end of it. A lot of them nowadays just look at the computer & go oh that's what we need to change & when that bit doesn't work they'll change something else.
They don't know how the system works or how to actually pull out an Oscilloscope & Meter to actually diagnose the problem.
That's where a good independent wins, they have to know how things work & how to diagnose problems at grass roots level.

 

[ruston]

Thanks , usefull site.

 

[Czar]

It's the same in bms. Loads of "engineers with laptops" who don't understand the hvac control (engine) and just make matters worse. My only faith is with Audi. Tech I spoke to seemed to know what he was talking about. Hopefully it doesn't end up with a work experience who keeps throwing ecus at it.

 

[UNG]

Yeah. I want the diagnostic tools. I have diagnostic software galore to interrogate building control systems and to integrate anything to anything through bespoke software drivers. The internet of things doesn't extend to cars yet. People fear cars being hacked. Why tie a car to another system.

In Dubai they supposedly have fire systems linked to both the fire station and then to traffic management smart roads. If a fire is detected the available service sets off and the smart roads clear a lane to the firey building. Getting people to think about the potential of integrating systems and how we can take benefit of one system and utilise it for another is tricky. Not everyone knows the benefit of other systems so at the moment we're just playing with ideas.

Not quite understanding you here do you want a one size fits all car diagnostic package, which would currently limit you to any one of the generic diagnostic offerings which only read the predefined DTC's that all manufacturers have to use or are you suggesting that all manufacturers should use the same CAN protocols and DTC's to make diagnostics a single unit fault find

Take a look at Gendan in Swansea, their diagnostic kit is pretty good.
Problem with manufacturers kit, is the people on the end of it. A lot of them nowadays just look at the computer & go oh that's what we need to change & when that bit doesn't work they'll change something else.
They don't know how the system works or how to actually pull out an Oscilloscope & Meter to actually diagnose the problem.
That's where a good independent wins, they have to know how things work & how to diagnose problems at grass roots level.

Gendan sell the Rosstech VAG diagnostics I mentioned earlier some of which is a free download on the Rosstech site

 

[UNG]

It's the same in bms. Loads of "engineers with laptops" who don't understand the hvac control (engine) and just make matters worse. My only faith is with Audi. Tech I spoke to seemed to know what he was talking about. Hopefully it doesn't end up with a work experience who keeps throwing ecus at it.

There are a lot of people who can talk the talk but can't deliver I don't think it matters whether you have the work experience guy or the senior tech working on your vehicle you are asking mechanics to be electronics technicians and that is a big ask

My next door neighbour when he was on the tools was a senior tech working on Volvo buses and went to Sweden a number of times a year on training courses most of the tooling on his van was electronic diagnostic kit as he did little spanner work he always says he trained as a mechanic and became an electronics tech, he is now a regional service manager and splits his work time between his original employer and Volvo UK talking to him he really knows his stuff including all the hybrid stuff and it can be helpful talking to him when I'm trying to fault find on any vehicle

 

[Czar]

So here's the dig. Audi had it for a week while I was away. I emailed the dolly bird to check in progress and another tech had given it a once over, followed a few of the chewed wires and said this rodent damage was superficial and not the cause. From what I can gather he tried to reset a fault with the steering sensor but couldn't do it, figured out the wheel alignment was out and did a 4 wheel track alignment and then recalibrated the sensor to the column and all's well again. I have my wheels back. Cost £176 + vat. Saved myself a bit more than expected and was surprised they didn't milk the wiring issue a bit more.
I am Going to spend a couple a hundreds on some software and a cable. I am intrigued to see what depth of configuration is available. Ideally I'd like to be able to see each ecu and make a mental picture of what controllers are in the cars electrical system and figure out their relationship. Will speak to gendan.

My wife has a rav 4. Will the Genden kid talk to her car too? I know it's vag but isn't it all can bus?
Cheers for any help
Ps
A couple of the chewed wires cables need a braiding solution but that can't go over the end. Is there any wraparound braiding any idea (new thread)??

 

[SparkyChick]

Can't comment on the diagnostics kit, but for the wires I might be tempted to wrap each one that's been chewed in some self amalgamating tape and then cover the lot with some of the fabric loom wrapping tape that's pretty common on auto looms.

 

[Wilko]

and another tech had given it a once over, followed a few of the chewed wires and said this rodent damage was superficial and not the cause. From what I can gather he tried to reset a fault with the steering sensor but couldn't do it, figured out the wheel alignment was out and did a 4 wheel track alignment and then recalibrated the sensor to the column and all's well again. I have my wheels back. Cost £176 + vat.

Great result !
Thanks for the update

 

[ruston]

Yes thanks fo getting back to us.

PS. That seems a very fair price too.

 

[Specialist]

Agreed that's a very fair price, unfortunately I don't think the diagnostic kit will be compatible with your wife's Rav4.
VAG diagnostics kit is normally tailored specifically to their vehicles, speak to Gendan before buying & they'll give you good advice. Not I might add, always tailored to their own kit.