Question about BS 7671:2008 - future access and use of technology

[Outspoken]

Gents, I have a question for all, with the march of technology taking us ever more forward and things like tablets, smart phones and Kindles allowing access to written works previously not accessible electronically, i would like to know if people would use an electronic version of the Regulations in their everyday work as a reference works, we all know that carrying a Regs book and other references is impractical.

I am interested to see what people think about this and what form you would like any such produced works to take.

Should it be exactly the same as the printed version only, like a scanned version in PDF format, or as the printed version but interactive to allow cross referencing and perhaps linked to other publications, websites and online updates for amendments etc?

The Poll is multiple choice so you can answer as many questions that apply to your train of thought.

I would appreciate as many people who view actually vote even if you do not comment.

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[ferg]

The current electronic version uses virtual library and is too clunky for me.
I can't comment on the iPhone app as I have an android tablet.

A simple pdf version would suit me.

 

[boycie17]

I would defiantly prefer it and use it, but as long as you don't need to pay extra for i.e you still buy the book but you get a download option with a unique code which you can download 5 times etc..

 

[Gage]

Okay so I just typed a huge essay on this and lost connection when I went to post so here goes a rough:

Rather than just a PDF or any other electronic format. We could have an app for android and iphones, which references with a central server and website (perhaps part of TIET itself). This app would include references which people voted most useful and also common page sections which are regularly updated from user monitoring, this shows common pages which people use. And a search aspect with smart searching that helps understand what you're asking to find. And along with all this, a suggestions section for regulations with polls not unlike this, of course this is not limited to just the BS 7671:2008, it could go for ALL regulations and ALL regulators could follow from example.

All this to allow the common man with a common mind to understand exactly what is required of him when he does his job. Because at the end of the day there are always going to be lesser minds out there who will simply skip the technical stuff whether they care or not because they will not understand. We already have courses for this you say? Yes...we do, and we continue to see people who have passed these courses with flying colours doing appalling jobs.

Now, as for annual subscription, of course there will be one, or perhaps not. Since it will be an app, you may simply pay the one of charge (which includes the full price of the BS 7671:2008 and anything else included in the app) like any other application, obviously with a cherry on top for all the extra things.

Of course the website will provide a lot more options, but I see it as the website being the hub, where everybody congregates after work and discusses, the apps being what people are using at work to get jobs done quicker and easier whilst still following regulations.

In conclusion...of course this is an extremely rough idea I have put across on the spot, but others and I may amend and improve this idea and work of it.

Thanks to Outspoken for instigating my brain.

Warning not proof-read.

 

[Outspoken]

Thanks Gage, exactly the type of response I wanted.

Now lets hope we can get this debate moving forward, and perhaps enough people will start to respond to convince the powers that be to make this a sticky for a while, perhaps until the end of June/July

 

[Andy78]

I agree with gage that a pdf format document of that size would be unwieldy and difficult to use, probably more so than a printed version. I find flicking through the printed version no problem at all. Just the size of it and keeping it in good condition prevent me from taking it out on site.

For me a digital version would have to have cross linking of references as has been said, and also greater thought given to it's usability. I know the OSG is meant to fill this "on site/laymans terms" gap, but we all know the limitations of that document.
It would also need to be faster than flicking through the printed version which, given a good working knowledge of the regs, is pretty fast already.

Having said that, if the digital/app version was completely different, I would also like to have a pdf or printed version in the format it is now.

 

[Infamous]

There is already a comprehensive solution if you are willing to get your wallet out: the Vital Source software via the IET website with a Kindle/tablet combo. I have a Kindle Fire 8.9 inch with vital source software installed, and the IET's industrial package for the digital copies of the Regs. This includes the Regs itself, O.S.G, all the guidance notes plus the option to get supplementary books such as the Electricians guide to emergency lighting etc. Where it really stands out is the ability to search the books for key terms/words and highlight and make notes and bookmarks at certain points. Furthermore all of the guidance notes are intrinsically linked with the regulations book itself, so for example in Guidance note 3 where it makes a statement quoted from the Regs, double tapping on the reg number next to that statement will take you to that point in the Regs book.

Furthermore with a kindle you can combine this resource with other topical books, such as John Birds electrical theory books and higher level mathematics to give yourself a portable powerhouse of knowledge at your fingertips.

 

[Outspoken]

Thanks Infamous, the digital versions as they stand are well done and useful, however well outside the pocket depth of the majority of sparks, and employers will never pay for the licensing to allow their staff full and mobile access, imagine one of the large maintenance contractors, such as Integral, with about 3500 of their engineers being sparks, not to mention contract managers, account managers etc. The cost is simply prohibitive and cannot be justified, so there is a need for an alternative that is still able to tick all boxes.

 

[Plonker 3]

But surely if the IET already do a version they won't licence a version that would be cheaper than there own?

 

[Guest55]

i always buy printed books as i prefer the tactile feeling of thumbing through pages.
the other advantage is you need no other equipment or power supply.
lifes far too digitized these days ;-)

 

[Plonker 3]

Plus how would it work taking a digital copy into a exam? Surely you cheat alot more as you can always hide lots of info on a hard drive

 

[SirKit Breaker]

The OSG will do for everyday use, why cart the BGB around!

 

[Toonlad]

I posed some questions on electronic forms of publications not so long ago. Not trialled the IET version yet. But very keen to be able to have reference from my phone or tablet would be handy for those get out of jail days. But i think this day and age if you purchase the published version, then you should get some sort of free access to a pdf,/website/or some electronic form.

 

[Gage]

Plus how would it work taking a digital copy into a exam? Surely you cheat alot more as you can always hide lots of info on a hard drive

Digital exam programs which have all resources you're allowed inside and which limit you to that program once the exam has began etc etc. This sort of thing is already in place for many other courses outside of Electrical.

 

[richy3333]

I can't vote as I don't fit into any of the options. I intend to purchase the digital versions and I'm fed up carting the book around and I use a laptop for reports/certificates anyway. As said the IET already offer the books as an electronic option and if you are member they are cheaper. I don't see that a couple of hundred pounds is that unreasonable (obviously I'd prefer it if they were free or heavily subsidised to IET members) and at the end of the day we are all running a business so should be able to factor in the cost?

 

[SYKRAPS]

I think that when we purchase a copy of BS7671 it should come with a license where we can also download a copy for digital use..............god knows it costs enough

 

[Phoenix]

Personally, I think paper is quicker. I use a Kindle to read novels a lot but they're easy, just sequential pages. On technical documents, searching for terms is actually difficult to set up. You might want to look up, say, "cable sizes". In a printed index you would come across "cable selection" and quickly look that up. A search on electronic copies MAY not be as intuitive. It's easy to turn a book through 90 degrees to read a table, maybe more difficult with a screen. I know, perhaps, it's an age thing but I reckon I could find things quicker in a paper book than is possible with most mobile devices. I remember being able to beat calculators on simple calculations with a slide rule. Whatever suits really I guess...

 

[Outspoken]

OK, here are some of my thoughts on the posts I did not see until late last night and I have decided to answer together in one post, I would firstly like to say THANKS to all who have responded so far.

i always buy printed books as i prefer the tactile feeling of thumbing through pages.
the other advantage is you need no other equipment or power supply.
lifes far too digitized these days ;-)

OK Biff, I get that, there are time I too prefer to whizz though the real thing and physically have a book, but lets be honest the world and technology is changing and I do feel that we need to move forward on our approach so that all schools of thought and working are catered for.

Plus how would it work taking a digital copy into a exam? Surely you cheat alot more as you can always hide lots of info on a hard drive

Couple of points here, firstly, internet access can easily be blocked in an exam room, if you let in the printed version, then there is not reason to block the electronic version; secondly perhaps this is why we should all have a printed version regardless or perhaps the software could have an electronic "switch" for exam mode and this is set when you turn up for the exam with a pin that has to be entered to disable it when you leave (by the examining board)

The OSG will do for everyday use, why cart the BGB around!

That's fair enough, but for many electricians and engineers the OSG is not sufficient.

I posed some questions on electronic forms of publications not so long ago. Not trialled the IET version yet. But very keen to be able to have reference from my phone or tablet would be handy for those get out of jail days. But i think this day and age if you purchase the published version, then you should get some sort of free access to a pdf,/website/or some electronic form.

I would for the most part agree there, the exact mechanics of this would have to be worked out but at the moment I do not feel the Regs and the support services are actually value for money. (Not that I can do anything about that personally)

Digital exam programs which have all resources you're allowed inside and which limit you to that program once the exam has began etc etc. This sort of thing is already in place for many other courses outside of Electrical.

Thanks for that input Gage, all good information.

I can't vote as I don't fit into any of the options. I intend to purchase the digital versions and I'm fed up carting the book around and I use a laptop for reports/certificates anyway. As said the IET already offer the books as an electronic option and if you are member they are cheaper. I don't see that a couple of hundred pounds is that unreasonable (obviously I'd prefer it if they were free or heavily subsidised to IET members) and at the end of the day we are all running a business so should be able to factor in the cost?

You can still vote and for your information £330 for the full digitized version is a rip off for a system that whilst good, does not do everything it should for the price paid. Students etc cannot afford £330 and why should it be heavily subsidized for members, or do you mean all who join the IET...bear in mind the different grades of membership from Student to Fellow, via TMIET, MIET

 

[Outspoken]

And this is for the last two that would not fit in the multi-quote above!

I think that when we purchase a copy of BS7671 it should come with a license where we can also download a copy for digital use..............god knows it costs enough

I'm of a different opinion, personally I think the printed version should be FREE when you perhaps buy or subscribe to an interactive online/digital version

Personally, I think paper is quicker. I use a Kindle to read novels a lot but they're easy, just sequential pages. On technical documents, searching for terms is actually difficult to set up. You might want to look up, say, "cable sizes". In a printed index you would come across "cable selection" and quickly look that up. A search on electronic copies MAY not be as intuitive. It's easy to turn a book through 90 degrees to read a table, maybe more difficult with a screen. I know, perhaps, it's an age thing but I reckon I could find things quicker in a paper book than is possible with most mobile devices. I remember being able to beat calculators on simple calculations with a slide rule. Whatever suits really I guess...

Phoenix, having written some small publications for Kindle I know what you mean, but the real issue here is that many authors do not truly understand how to use HTML and associated programming code so the publications are clunky and clumsy, there are a few out there that make full use of the ability of the software to be truly interactive, but with a few exceptions this tends to be limited to those publication specifically about publishing on Kindle, writing in HTML 5 or similar, Web Authoring guides and some very specialised scientific books that cost hundreds of pounds...and a handful of small publications I have undertaken in a very specialised field within Astronomy.

 

[Rockingit]

we all know that carrying a Regs book and other references is impractical.

I'm inclined to disagree - or certainly not agree entirely! I have never found carrying a copy of the B(colour)B in the van to be an issue at all, and certainly many other sparks do the same. If I need to reference it myself then, well, a decent sparks knows his way around the book and where stuff is anyway. If I need to wave it in front of a customers nose then a big imposing book full of intricate detail and diagrams is far more a useful and believable tool than "hang on, I'll just wait five minutes for the technology to warm up and, hmm, ok that search string wasn't quite right, can't quite make out the pic on this small screen on my phone, if you scroll through to...., signal's not very good here - can I access your wifi?" etc etc etc.

And no - I'm an awfully long way from being an IT snail, I just happen to think that the printed matter is the right tool for the job in this instance.