ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[rattlehead85]

I think it is disgraceful how contractors who choose not to use the NIC but still pay a yearly fee who have proven time served with another body who don't implement this DI /AC crap now all of a sudden suffer for the privilege of appearing on a register which if the truth be known is full of incompetents anyway! They pay roughly the same fees as NIC members and yet they don't get properly recognised.
What a shambles!

 

[MDJ]

I get what your saying glen, the NICEIC has always had 2 schemes the approved contractor and the Domestic installer, they both had different criteria to be accredited, I undertand what your saying and also rattlehead too, honestly, but I'm just saying there is still some merit in the approved contractor and it is different than the DI, it i changing so quickly at the moment I have no Idea how much longer it will have merit, in the olden days it meant something and if you were not in the approved contractor scheme you had no chance of any commercial or industrial works with local authorities or had no chance to get on lists where real works were carried out, today it is getting less and less respect, but there is still a difference and thats all I'm saying, it still takes a bit of knowledge rather than just money to be on the AC scheme, thats my view Glenn

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I get what your saying glen, the NICEIC has always had 2 schemes the approved contractor and the Domestic installer, they both had different criteria to be accredited, I undertand what your saying and also rattlehead too, honestly, but I'm just saying there is still some merit in the approved contractor and it is different than the DI, it i changing so quickly at the moment I have no Idea how much longer it will have merit, in the olden days it meant something and if you were not in the approved contractor scheme you had no chance of any commercial or industrial works with local authorities or had no chance to get on lists where real works were carried out, today it is getting less and less respect, but there is still a difference and thats all I'm saying, it still takes a bit of knowledge rather than just money to be on the AC scheme, thats my view Glenn

hmm....
well from what i have it.....the `approved contractor` scheme run by the national inspection council used to be a minimum of 2 years opperating as a `DI` (cringe).....a di before you would even be considered for the scheme.....now you can just waltz in.......as long as you have the reddys and a few `jobs` to show em....
i`m sorry Mike....but that don`t cut it to me.....
what that says effectively...is someone who on completion of one of these `be an electrician in 7 weeks` courses.....can (given the `evidence`)....become an NIC approved contractor in no time at all.......and as such can also QS on someone elses work.....
frightful....

 

[Danspark]

oye....dummy.....yep you...
so when did a roll of G/Y become either earthin or bonding conductor.....when still on the drum eh?.....

who are you callin dummy?; dummy!

Protective equipotential bonding (‘bonding' for short) is sometimes confused with earthing - maybe you are confused because of the visual similarities between earthing and bonding, such as the green-and-yellow colour identification of the protective conductors used for both.

 

[MDJ]

Didn't know the criteria had changed regarding the AC scheme to be honest mate, I will ask my inspector about it and see what he has to say about it

 

[rattlehead85]

Well obviously MDJ what you are saying had merit a year or so back without a shadow of a doubt. Now the NIC are trying to get all their DI members onto approved status supposedly as a ploy to encourage other organisation members to switch over to get full recognition on this new register nonsense. And to do this with the attitude of minimum pain maximum gain. A quick breeze over of an inspection and job done oh and thanks for the 400+ quid.

 

[MDJ]

didn't realise the AC scheme had changed that much rattlehead, as I mentioned to Glenn I will challenge my inspector over it and see what he says fella.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

who are you callin dummy?; dummy!

Protective equipotential bonding (‘bonding' for short) is sometimes confused with earthing - maybe you are confused because of the visual similarities between earthing and bonding, such as the green-and-yellow colour identification of the protective conductors used for both.

lol....lol...

 

[Danspark]

do you fly? i ask because of your avatar (obviously)

sorry, forgot to hit the quote button, that was for glennspark

 

[GLENNSPARK]

do you fly? i ask because of your avatar (obviously)

lol.....lol...

 

[Danspark]

lol.....lol...

i was seriouse, ill take that as no

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i was seriouse, ill take that as no

in all fairnes to you dan.....not...as yet...
my avatar refers to my interest in early aviation, early aircraft, engines, construction methods and the technology around at the time...(1905-1919).....
so fire away......if you like....lol..

 

[Geoffsd]

Is it not? while it is on the drum it is My earth cable, who says its not going to be used to connect an exposed conductive part of an installation to the main earthing terminal of the installation? known as EARTHING (go check the definitions section of the green book (the one with "requirements for electrical installations written on the front") "Go to the van and get my bonding conductor" doesn't roll of my tongue very well! Note: after I described MY earthing cable i correctly used the term bonding incoming gas and water!

a 6mm earth cable bonding his incoming gas and water services have been removed and that a 10mm earth cable installed.

You did mention bonding had been removed but it didn't seem you realised the difference

What are you suggesting? go read regulation 544.1.1 and look at table 54.8!

I thought it may have been a quite happy TN-S system or an already over-engineered TT and replaced with 10mm. 'cos that's what we do now'.

 

[rattlehead85]

I don't think the AC scheme has changed MDJ mate i just think the way it is implemented and monitored has with the objective of making a quick and easy profit at contractors expense.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't think the AC scheme has changed MDJ mate i just think the way it is implemented and monitored has with the objective of making a quick and easy profit at contractors expense.

well if this is the case....then i will of course stand corrected.........
still slavver though isn`t it....

 

[Danspark]

in all fairnes to you dan.....not...as yet...
my avatar refers to my interest in early aviation, early aircraft, engines, construction methods and the technology around at the time...(1905-1919).....
so fire away......if you like....lol..

I could take you up some time, lots of airfields in West Yorkshire to meet me at.

 

[TaffyDuck]

D Skelton

ELECSA is a competent person scheme for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling!


“I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector.” No it doesn’t. that is how you see it. Sorry D Skelton, You ARE a domestic installer. (you can still do work in the commercial and industrial sector, you simply haven't joined a voluptuary regulatory body ie: as a NICEIC's approved contractor) That is why you signed up to ELECSA’s competent person scheme. You are very attached to to the approved contractor status that was given to you by the ELECSA. But now that you are on a list that has other accreditations for other electrical companies it makes sense that your approval by elecsa is not to be confused with an existing accreditation that you are NOT! anyways, why be attached to such a “made up name” by a company that you detest? why not try some other made up names, hows about; accepted contractor, agreed contractor, standard contractor, established contractor, confirmed contractor, acknowledged contractor, recognized contractor, sanctioned contractor agreed contractor...


*assumption made that a difference in opinion is ok? I know how passionate you can be

The keys to a successful business include how that business is perceived by its potential customers.

However you couch it, a potential customer looking at this register will look at the "grading" of electricians and assume that an Approved Contractor is a more highly qualified electrician than a Domestic Installer. This is often misleading in the extreme.

For instance a local building firm around here that appears near my business name on the postcode search employs one qualified electrician ( A good one too, I trained him) and use labourers to do the vast majority of their work. They appear as Approved Contractors. I, however who employ 1 fully qualified electrician in addition to myself and a 2nd year apprentice appear as a DI now, where as I would expect to appear as an Elecsa Approved Contractor.

That puts me at an immediate and unwarranted disadvantage.

It is all about perception. I am an Approved Contractor, NOT a DI which is a description that I refuse to acknowledge as it is a nonsense.

I am a qualified electrician who, at the moment at least, chooses to allow Elecsa to tell me what I already know, ie, that I am competent to carry out electrical work in peoples homes.

This register threatens the commercial/industrial side of my business as anyone looking at it will assume that I am not competent to carry out anything else other than domestic work.

And that is unacceptable.

 

[rattlehead85]

My point exactly and i am on the Approved contractors register with the NIC so why am i ok but others on rival schemes get punished who pay the same as me with the same experience.
The industry is corrupt even within the j.i.b their stance on grading of cards is just laughable at best.

 

[Danspark]

Hi Taffyduck,

The keys to a successful business include how that business is perceived by its potential customers.

Agreed! This is why I chose to join the NICEIC. They may not have known why, but the likes of Architects, local authorities etc were asking for NICEIC contractors

However you couch it, a potential customer looking at this register will look at the "grading" of electricians and assume that an Approved Contractor is a more highly qualified electrician than a Domestic Installer.

Agreed!

This is often misleading in the extreme.

is it? qualifications aside for the moment; should there not be some kind of separation from the two? on their website i see they refer to the contractors they have approved as operating a company within the the requirements of being a competent person. This is not just about qualifications, (not with the NICEIC anyway) in addition to qualifications do you not also have to have other items in place, I assume to protect the customer ordering the works, example: complaints procedures, health and safety policies etc (lame I know) so, they have approved you, you have all this in place and you have been approved for the competent person scheme. Right; heres where it gets messy, The NICEIC have a group of electricians (approved contractors) that have voluntarily joined in order to demonstrate to potential customers that they can safely work in other sectors (so can you, there is no Part P equivalent for the commercial or industrial sectors) in-fact my bloody mum can go and install emergency lights in the local cash and carry if she wanted to. Now if i wanted to go and work in that same cash and carry I am answerable to the NICEIC. on my next visit he will look at a list of different types of work I have done. when he sees that for the first time since enrolment he will say "no thats fine, but you must own a copy of the BS5266 if i don't then i have not complied with their code of practice and i'm told so. As far as i am aware ELECSA do not operate this time of scheme? Do i have to have extra qualifications... not sure, but my business must demonstrate that I have the up to date literature for reference for the said works. The same applies for petrol stations. I can work in a petrol station, can an a contractor approved with ELECSA?

That puts me at an immediate and unwarranted disadvantage.

Agreed

It is all about perception. I am an Approved Contractor, NOT a DI which is a description that I refuse to acknowledge as it is a nonsense.

sorry, this is exactly what D Skelton says and i have already said that i have a difference in opinion. (although i wont taunt you like i taunted him about it)

I am a qualified electrician who, at the moment at least, chooses to allow Elecsa to tell me what I already know, ie, that I am competent to carry out electrical work in peoples homes.
This register threatens the commercial/industrial side of my business as anyone looking at it will assume that I am not competent to carry out anything else other than domestic work.
And that is unacceptable.

Agreed, so you know what to do right, switch sides!

 

[D Skelton]

only if you are an approved contractor with domestic installation accreditation, other than that you are approved/acknowledged/recognised as a domestic installer.

domestic installer, domestic installer, domestic installer domestic installer, domestic installer

You're not getting it are you, you seem like an educated fella, that's why I'm really struggling to see how you can be so obtuse!

I AM AN APPROVED CONTRACTOR, look my business up on the Elecsa website if you like!!

I am APPROVED by them to self certify in domestic dwellings, that is an entirely different thing to being labled as a 'Domestic Installer', how many times do I have to say it!?!

The NIC are the ones who set up the Electrical Safety Register. It is the NIC and the NIC alone that is reffering to my business as a domestic installer!!! It is their made up phrase!

God I'm getting bored now!

 

[Simlec]

Danspark do you work for the Niceic sales team???
We all know what Niceic AC means!

 

[D Skelton]

I can work in a petrol station, can an a contractor approved with ELECSA?

Yes, they can, I can, and have!"How?" I hear you ask... Because it falls outside the scope of Part P. You don't have to be approved by anyone to do such work.Give up mate!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

You're not getting it are you, you seem like an educated fella, that's why I'm really struggling to see how you can be so obtuse!

I AM AN APPROVED CONTRACTOR, look my business up on the Elecsa website if you like!!

I am APPROVED by them to self certify in domestic dwellings, that is an entirely different thing to being labled as a 'Domestic Installer', how many times do I have to say it!?!

The NIC are the ones who set up the Electrical Safety Register. It is the NIC and the NIC alone that is reffering to my business as a domestic installer!!! It is their made up phrase!

God I'm getting bored now!

it even says a such on the side of the van.....
`domestic installer`=NIC
`approved contractor`=elecsa

 

[markc123]

danspark.....i misunderstood you at first and appologised.

However, you're in a minority here, surely this is telling you something? I understand your passion about it and fair play for fighting your corner, when not everyone (if anyone) agree's.

The fact is the whole of the electrical 'network' if thats the correct phrase is corrupt, its about making money at the highest level - and the competent people on the ground, who go about doing the work to industry standards get buggered because mr.smith in his office has a brainwave.

There is pro's and con's to every argument, this however, from what i can see and if im wrong im wrong........is full of con's

 

[Geoffsd]

Can I try to get through?

The problem is that Elecsa Approved Contractors are presented as Domestic Installers by the register whereas NICEIC Approved Contractors are presented as Approved Contractors.

Saying that the answer to this is not to rectify the situation but to transfer to NICEIC is blackmail.

 

[Engineer54]

Originally Posted by Danspark
I can work in a petrol station, can an a contractor approved with ELECSA?


​

Yes, they can, I can, and have!"How?" I hear you ask... Because it falls outside the scope of Part P. You don't have to be approved by anyone to do such work.Give up mate!

​

I hope that both of you have an appropriate Ex certification, if any of this work you have carried out at a petrol station was within the forecourt area's or on the pumps control/protection installations?? ...lol!!!

 

[Danspark]

I hope that both of you have an appropriate Ex certification, if any of this work you have carried out at a petrol station was within the forecourt area's or on the pumps control/protection installations?? ...lol!!!

I was wrong. I can't! But D Skelton can

Yes, they can, I can, and have!"How?" I hear you ask... Because it falls outside the scope of Part P. You don't have to be approved by anyone to do such work.Give up mate!

Gonna give up in a mo' You have me at a disadvantage. (as an apporved contractor I have to have an “add on”. Under the provisions of the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (EWR) and the Dangerous Substances & Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 (DSEAR), the site operator (licensee) has a legal obligation to ensure in choosing an electrical contractor that the contractor is fully conversant with the electrical section of the Blue Guide and BS.7671 (IEE Wiring Regulations). Been trained in the installation, maintenance and testing of electrical apparatus for use in potentially explosive atmospheres and is fully conversant with BS EN 6007914, ‘Electrical Installations in Hazardous Areas, I don’t even own “the Blue Book”. It would seem that as an approved contractor I might be the first choice of a site operator but i’m not sure that I wish to spend all that money on the training and books required. I believe the “Blue book” costs just shy of £200. Is that what you paid?

Ps. This is something I know nothing about! I can not work in a petrol station. Although the NICEIC could help me if i wanted but don't plan on doing so (the above was taken from the internet so not reliable)

 

[Danspark]

danspark.....i misunderstood you at first and appologised.

However, you're in a minority here, surely this is telling you something?

According to an NICEIC survey from 1500 contractors I am not in the minority 49% believe that they have seen improvements in the industry. (unless that wasn't what you were referring to)

perhaps you mean about the difference between elecsa's approved contractors and their clasification on domestic installer. in which case yes, and will agree to disagree.

 

[Simlec]

According to an NICEIC survey from 1500 contractors I am not in the minority 49% believe that they have seen improvements in the industry. (unless that wasn't what you were referring to)

No Dan its just the new breed of DIYers cant be bothered/lazy !

 

[Engineer54]

According to an NICEIC survey from 1500 contractors I am not in the minority 49% believe that they have seen improvements in the industry. (unless that wasn't what you were referring to)

perhaps you mean about the difference between elecsa's approved contractors and their clasification on domestic installer. in which case yes, and will agree to disagree.

My god, ...Do you still actually believe in Surveys?? Especially surveys carried out by the interested party themselves!! You really have fallen Hook, Line, and Sinker for the complete marketing drivel that the NICEIC spews out by the bucket load!! lol!!

 

[Danspark]

complete marketing drivel that the NICEIC spews out by the bucket load!! lol!!

more Propaganda! You clearly have quite a following!

 

[D Skelton]

Deleted. Sodding BlackBerry!

 

[D Skelton]

Deleted again

Sorry mods

 

[D Skelton]

I hope that both of you have an appropriate Ex certification, if any of this work you have carried out at a petrol station was within the forecourt area's or on the pumps control/protection installations?? ...lol!!!

Ex07 Eng, was the first course I did as a mate. I haven't refreshed or attended 08 since starting up on my own though.

 

[markc123]

According to an NICEIC survey from 1500 contractors I am not in the minority 49% believe that they have seen improvements in the industry. (unless that wasn't what you were referring to)

perhaps you mean about the difference between elecsa's approved contractors and their clasification on domestic installer. in which case yes, and will agree to disagree.

danspark, you seem an inteligent guy, but you can't honestly tell me you go by these surveys? I would love to get hold of that data and see who they actually asked. Guaranteed it was just part p qualified people who have had an easy way into the industry......or, NIC office staff, call workers and every relative under the sun...which wouldn't suprise me, thats how inacurate these surveys can be. Misleading is an understatement.

Saying you're correct, and this survey is accurate, and it was answered truthfully by qualified time served sparks.......it still means 51% disagree and haven't seen improvements.

As regards the elecsa's approved contractors classification....ive read this thread, took everyone opions on board, and my stance is that of d skelton's....its a complete farce.

 

[Engineer54]

more Propaganda! You clearly have quite a following!

Far from it, it's just that any fool and his dog, wouldn't believe much from any survey, let alone a single word from a survey conducted by the interested party themselves.


Think about it, you can't admittedly charge members large sums of fee's without at least having something in the way of statistics to show as a provider your making a difference. So what's the best way of getting those complementry statistic's, ....Right, conduct your ''OWN'' survey. ....Now don't start me on Statistic's, because we ALL i hope know what they say about those things!! lol!!

 

[TaffyDuck]

Dan the one thing you fail to grasp is that the NIC and ECA have hijacked this industry for their own gain. They seem to think that they, without any form of legislation to back them up, can dictate who can carry out work on non domestic systems. They do this by convincing the gullible that a good electrical contractor is NIC/ECA approved. They have also tried to do the same with EICR/Periodics but have largely failed on that.

You seem I am afraid to have fallen hook line and sinker for this.

The point that we are trying, without success it would seem, to get across to you is that the NIC have made up this DI name. We do not want it, never asked for it and avoided the NIC because of it. It has no basis in law. At no point in the ammendment to building regs that was passed by parliament and was implemented in Jan 2005 did it say the words "Domestic Installer". Approved however is used numerous times.

You seem to have been so indoctrinated by the NIC that it is impossible to budge you. It reminds me of conversations I used to have with a communist friend of mine who`s views were so ingrained that he wouldn`t even believe that it was going wrong when the Berlin wall was coming down.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Far from it, it's just that any fool and his dog, wouldn't believe much from any survey, let alone a single word from a survey conducted by the interested party themselves.


Think about it, you can't admittedly charge members large sums of fee's without at least having something in the way of statistics to show as a provider your making a difference. So what's the best way of getting those complementry statistic's, ....Right, conduct your ''OWN'' survey. ....Now don't start me on Statistic's, because we ALL i hope know what they say about those things!! lol!!

`well our statistics say`......

and...

`because our research shows`.....
lol......

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Nowt wrong with surveys given a large enough random sample and a greater than 80% response rate.

Shame they haven't used a random sample then isn't it

 

[TaffyDuck]

I have done a survey of my family. I had 100% response, out of the 16 people surveyed, 5 wanted beef for sunday dinner, 6 lamb, 4 pork and 1 chicken. Having listened to them all and taken into consideration their views I have decided we will have chicken because its my house. :cheesy: