H

hightower

Why is it that the osg figures don't line up perfectly with the bs7671 figures for maximum zs? For example

16 amp type b breaker

0.8 x 2.73 = 2.18 in bs7671 yet osg says 2.2

Fair enough if they have just rounded it but they haven't rounded every one. For example 32 amp type c

0.8 x 1.37 = 1.096 in bs7671 so you would think the osg would round it to 1.1 but they have 1.09 listed.

What am I missing?
 
Not forgetting the Cmin factor also mate, as rediculous as it is. But hey who are we to question the boffins at the IET!
 
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Not forgetting the Cmin factor also mate, as rediculous as it is. But hey who are we to question the buffoons at the IET!
corrected that for you. no charge.
 
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Why is it that the osg figures don't line up perfectly with the bs7671 figures for maximum zs? For example

16 amp type b breaker

0.8 x 2.73 = 2.18 in bs7671 yet osg says 2.2

Fair enough if they have just rounded it but they haven't rounded every one. For example 32 amp type c

0.8 x 1.37 = 1.096 in bs7671 so you would think the osg would round it to 1.1 but they have 1.09 listed.

What am I missing?

32A type B is 1.37 not C. Cmin is already accounted for in values from the BYB or Yellow OSG.
 
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I think it is that the OSG tables are at 80% of the tables in BS7671
 
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I think it is that the OSG tables are at 80% of the tables in BS7671
yep osg assumes that cables run @ 70degrees. in a domestic, this could only occur due to overload and/or a cannabis farm. we have to assume that the writers of the osg are either stupid or stoned.
 
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I beleive it is to compensate for the max operating temp of the cable when it is carrying its designed load. It all aires on the side of caution quite a lot in reality, I mean have you ever seen I final circuit operating at anywhere near 70c?

Pretty sure I have note, still fairly wet behind the ears though personally.
 
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Yes you are quite correct on that Pete.

Jeez something right at last, and they say you loose your faculties the older you get, just waiting for Tel to come up with some sarcastic remark, all in fun of course. lol
 
BS EN 60228 gives a simplified resistance coefficient per ºC for copper and aluminium conductors at 20 ºC of {1 + 0.004 (ambient temperature - 20 ºC) }.*

BS 7671 takes this to mean that at typical cable operating temperatures, the approximate resistance-temperature coefficient of 0.004 per ºC **

This means that for every ºC difference in a value of a resistance or impedance at a reference temperature, then the corrected value will be:

{ reference resistance / [1 + 0.004 (reference resistance temperature - corrected resistance temperature ) ] } ***

BS 7671 gives reference values for maximum permitted Zs (including factors such as Cmin) at a reference temperature of 70ºC ****

The maximum Zs values quoted in Appendix B of the On-Site Guide and Appendix A of GN3 assume an ambient temperature of 10ºC *****

As the reference temperature is 70ºC and the ambient temperature is assumed to be 10ºC, the equation above states:

Corrected value of resistance = { reference resistance / [ 1 + 0.004 ( 70 - 10 ) ] }
= { reference resistance / [ 1 + ( 0.004 * 60 ) ] }
= { reference resistance / [ 1 + 0.24 ] }
= { reference resistance / 1.24 } ******

So for example, a 32A BS EN 60898 type B circuit breaker has a maximum Zs of 1.37Ω *******
So the corrected value is 1.37 / 1.24 = 1.1048Ω

Of note: 1 / 1.24 = 0.80645. So rather than divide by 1.24, you could instead multiply by 0.80645 ********

Appendix 14 (informative) of BS 7671 advises that the requirements of Regulation 411.4.5 or 411.5.4 are considered to be met when Zs (measured) = 0.8 x [ ( U0 * Cmin ) / Ia ] *********

So if you want to work out to the 4th significant figure what your maximum acceptable measured Zs value is, then by all means use 0.80645 as your multiplier. Of course, your calibrated thermometer (to measure the ambient temperature) must have an equivalent degree of accuracy, as must your calibrated test instrument. Good luck with that.

And whilst we're on the subject of accuracy... does it strike anyone as odd that the maximum permitted disconnection times given in regulations 411.3.2.2 - 411.3.2.4 are only to 1 significant figure? And that they are "round numbers" (particularly 411.3.2.3 and 411.3.2.4 ("5s" and "1s")? These - and the nominal voltage of 230, and Cmin of 0.95 (presumably because 0.94 looked too ugly) - are where all the other values come from.

I'm sure there a good technical reasons for choosing these seemingly random maximum disconnection times. I'll just look it up in my copy of "Commentary on the IET Wiring Regulations." It must be here somewhere.... I ordered it in February, after all, and the estimated arrival date is October 2015. I'm sure it will be here any day now....



* ref table B2 of GN3
** ref note in section 6.1 of Appendix 4 of BS 7671 (p 337)
*** because maths
**** ref NOTE 3 of 411.4.6, 411.4.7, 411.4.8 and 411.8.3
***** ref p 119 of both publications - huh, freaky!
****** because maths
******* ref Table 41.3 of BS 7671
******** because maths
********* ref Appendix 14 of BS 7671 (p 452)
 
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BS EN 60228 gives a simplified resistance coefficient per ºC for copper and aluminium conductors at 20 ºC of {1 + 0.004 (ambient temperature - 20 ºC) }.*

BS 7671 takes this to mean that at typical cable operating temperatures, the approximate resistance-temperature coefficient of 0.004 per ºC **

<snip>

Thanks happysteve, I'm going to spend a little bit time going over this once I've woken up properly, but thanks for such a detailed explanation.
 
Thanks happysteve, I'm going to spend a little bit time going over this once I've woken up properly, but thanks for such a detailed explanation.

No worries. Apparently, after a good session in the pub, there's nothing I like better than to get my Regs out and go all technical.

Another thing that occurred to me this morning: in the post above, I used the example of 1.37Ω being the "reference resistance." This is actually determined by Zs = ( U0 x Cmin) / Ia, so in the case of a 32A Type B breaker this is ( 230 x 0.95 ) / 160 = 1.365625Ω This gets rounded up to 1.37 in Table 41.3 in the Regs. So once you divide that by 1.24 you end up with 1.10131.... In practice, it's bog all difference... but it might account for some of the strange "rounding up or down" observations you mentioned in your original post.
 
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Great posts there Steve.

Good to see someone understanding the 'why' rather than just 'the book says'
 
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Great posts there Steve.

Good to see someone understanding the 'why' rather than just 'the book says'
Thank you :)

I'd dearly love to understand where the disconnection times (in general, 0.4s or 1s or 5s) come from. I know they (the folk who write the Regs) have to start somewhere... but why these times? Are they purely historical? Why are distribution circuits "special" in that they are permitted longer (often more than 10 times longer) disconnection times? Is it to allow easier discrimination, or is it based on a generic risk assessment?

Does anyone have an older copy of the Commentary, and if so, does it shed some light onto this?
 

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