exyending ring main

[wobblymike]

i am about to build a partition wall in my daughters house to split one big bedroom into 2 for my grandchildren. Iam going to install 2 double sockets on each side of the new wall. There is one double socket in the bedroom at present and my intent is to split the ring under this socket by cutting one of the cables and inserting the new cable run via 2 30a junction boxes. When i polled up the floorboard yesterday I was surprised to see only 1 set of connections to the socket via a single cable. I confirmed this by opening the face plate and confirming there was only 1 set of connections. This indicates that the socket is a spur which is very surprising as it is the only socket in the room. Obviously I cannot run the new cable run from a spur. Am i missing something here?,

 

[telectrix]

you could fit a FCU before the existing socket then spur off your new sockets from there. make all connections in back of accessories, then they are accessible.

 

[Octopus]

i am about to build a partition wall in my daughters house to split one big bedroom into 2 for my grandchildren. Iam going to install 2 double sockets on each side of the new wall. There is one double socket in the bedroom at present and my intent is to split the ring under this socket by cutting one of the cables and inserting the new cable run via 2 30a junction boxes. When i polled up the floorboard yesterday I was surprised to see only 1 set of connections to the socket via a single cable. I confirmed this by opening the face plate and confirming there was only 1 set of connections. This indicates that the socket is a spur which is very surprising as it is the only socket in the room. Obviously I cannot run the new cable run from a spur. Am i missing something here?,

Experience and qualifications?

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Testing, Certification & Notification to LABC ???your breaking the law if you don't do the latter

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

How old is the house? Have you checked to make sure the circuit is in fact a ring and not a radial?

 

[wobblymike]

telectrix thankyou for that thought can you offer any thoghts as to why the only socket in the room appears to be a spur

 

[kingeri]

Mate, this is really simple stuff that any decent spark will be able to sort for you easily. Please get someone in to do this for you, especially as you say it's for your grandchildren!!!!! Without seeing the layout, no-one on a forum can direct you as what to do. For example, if I was doing this job, I'd do testing at the distribution board to confirm that the ring was actually a ring, before doing anything else.

 

[Thefailsafe2012]

telectrix thankyou for that thought can you offer any thoghts as to why the only socket in the room appears to be a spur

Could be any reason from the circuit being a radial, or more likely it's just spurred off the ring. This is why you need to verify what the circuit is to give you/us a better idea of what can be done

 

[Rockingit]

There is nothing wrong with the occasional spur and they are commonly found. However, and you need to absorb this - no matter how competent you are (and I get an impression that you are, please don't get me wrong) at DIY and 'know how things work' the installation of extra wiring/sockets etc is now governed by Part P of the building regs and you are legally required to notify to your local area building control what you are doing and that the end result meets current regs, is tested and certified etc.

On a practical note, if it IS a spur then you need to identify where it's fed from. If it's a double socket on a ring elsewhere then the easiest thing to do is to make that spurred socket into a 13a fused spur (doesn't even need to be a switched one, you just need the fuse) and then feed the other two new sockets from it. However, if it's actually a radial (point to point) circuit and you happen to have found the last point then so long as the rest of the circuit is OK and meets the applicable regulations then you can just extend it.

BUT - how are you to know about the applicable regs and be able to test that circuit to BS7671:2008 and know that it will not be in danger of harming said grandchild afterwards?

 

[telectrix]

as above posts, but have to disagree with the LABC involvement. this is not a notifiable job, but should be carried out in accordance with current regulations, tested and a minor works certificate completed. for what it will cost to get a qualified sparks in, that's the best option.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Testing, Certification & Notification to LABC ???your breaking the law if you don't do the latter

It's an addition or alteration to an existing circuit, and it's not in a special location.

 

[kingeri]

I find it incredible.......I bet he wouldn't mess around with the gas but he's happy to faff with the electrics.

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Circuit alteration is notifiable under napit guys

 

[Octopus]

Circuit alteration is notifiable under napit guys

Really. Thats daft.

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Try and dig it out, I hope I'm right lol

 

[Rockingit]

Tel, Spin - yes, fair comment! Get so used to the same routine it's easy to forget. But, an interesting technical point, when does 'extending a circuit' (non notifiable) start to cross over with fundamentally changing the characteristics of a circuit so far as Zs and different CPD's is concerned?

AND - no one has yet to mention the letters R, C & D.

 

[wobblymike]

ok time out thank you all for your thoughts i do appreciate it i will consider further.

 

[kingeri]

ok time out thank you all for your thoughts i do appreciate it i will consider further.

How to do the job or getting a spark in?

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Pretty grey area on the online notification, I was told to but extra sockets (not in special location) as "Other".....when you notify "Other" in comes as Notifiable to LA, I'm going to question it this week.

 

[telectrix]

wobbly, if you post your location, i'm sure one of us is close to you.

 

[Octopus]

Tel, Spin - yes, fair comment! Get so used to the same routine it's easy to forget. But, an interesting technical point, when does 'extending a circuit' (non notifiable) start to cross over with fundamentally changing the characteristics of a circuit so far as Zs and different CPD's is concerned?

AND - no one has yet to mention the letters R, C & D.

AND - no one has mentioned the letters b, o, n, d, i, n & g!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

To be honest Rock, I am starting to think, that Part P, should just be totally ignored.
I had someone tell me the other day, that you must have the 2391 to be able to issue an EIC or MEIWC, or be a member of a competent persons scheme.
Apparently this bit in Part P says so:

[TD="bgcolor: transparent"] 1.10 “Qualified” in this context means having the appropriate qualifications, knowledge and experience to carry out the inspection and testing procedures and complete the relevant electrical installation certificate. [/TD]

 

[Micklane]

Adding additional sockets, is not notifiable under in part P unless in a special location, and in England and Wales only. Also NAPIT doesn't state otherwise.

BS 7671 however requires RCD protection, where ordinary persons in houses etc. are concerned; this could be accomplished by fitting a combined RCD --- fused spur unit at the origin of the existing spur, so that the existing socket and the new are fully protected.


Regards

 

[wobblymike]

telectrix thams in the wakefield area

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

Tel, Spin - yes, fair comment! Get so used to the same routine it's easy to forget. But, an interesting technical point, when does 'extending a circuit' (non notifiable) start to cross over with fundamentally changing the characteristics of a circuit so far as Zs and different CPD's is concerned?

AND - no one has yet to mention the letters R, C & D.

Cant for the life of me figure why this isnt notifiable?, as above Characteristics of circuit altered, how does a DIY guy with no tester Know if the CPC is continuous in the new cable he has added, if the zs is already on the limit, how does he not know if it is now over the required value?, how does he know if the house is earthed correctly at all?....farce

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

If its entered under "Other Work" as I was advised(incorrectly?) to do (for the last 3 years) then it appears as......Notifiable but i will them ring tomorrow

 

[Micklane]

Cant for the life of me figure why this isnt notifiable?, as above Characteristics of circuit altered,

For a competent preson, it will require a MWC, but it's not notifiable in this case.

Regards

 

[Rockingit]

If its entered under "Other Work" as I was advised(incorrectly?) to do (for the last 3 years) then it appears as......Notifiable but i will them ring tomorrow

Of course they'll say it's notifiable- they want the money!!

 

[LlandrilloSpark]

I will be putting in an invoice to Napit for all them £1 notifications I didn't need to do!

 

[thekingiam]

who is going to check zs, volt drop, continuity,polarity,insulation resistance,rcd protection present and tested and bonding?
an electrician should do these tests without thinking about it, anyone could add extra sockets and yes they should work if done corectly the problem is always if a fault occured later on you see dead people.
i think but not sure its a minnor works cert but not notifiable unless in special location.
this does not mean anyone can do this work, they should still be competant and do tests listed on minnor works it's up to diyer to prove competancy later on if someone dies.
I would also ask if anyone knows of any household insurers that have not paid out because of diyers?

 

[wobblymike]

again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this

 

[MDJ]

i am about to build a partition wall in my daughters house to split one big bedroom into 2 for my grandchildren. Iam going to install 2 double sockets on each side of the new wall. There is one double socket in the bedroom at present and my intent is to split the ring under this socket by cutting one of the cables and inserting the new cable run via 2 30a junction boxes. When i polled up the floorboard yesterday I was surprised to see only 1 set of connections to the socket via a single cable. I confirmed this by opening the face plate and confirming there was only 1 set of connections. This indicates that the socket is a spur which is very surprising as it is the only socket in the room. Obviously I cannot run the new cable run from a spur. Am i missing something here?,

Without testing the continuity of the circuit I wouldn't dare suggest anything regarding it, best to leave well alone unless you feel you can do it correctly, remember your Grandchildren will be using these sockets, do you want to be responsible for their safety regarding this? Not trying to be awkward, I wish you well, but cannot help you do the Job yourelf due to your post, I hope you have a nice 2013 by the way.


Mike

 

[KAS1]

good question

who is going to check zs, volt drop, continuity,polarity,insulation resistance,rcd protection present and tested and bonding?
an electrician should do these tests without thinking about it, anyone could add extra sockets and yes they should work if done corectly the problem is always if a fault occured later on you see dead people.
i think but not sure its a minnor works cert but not notifiable unless in special location.
this does not mean anyone can do this work, they should still be competant and do tests listed on minnor works it's up to diyer to prove competancy later on if someone dies.
I would also ask if anyone knows of any household insurers that have not paid out because of diyers?

 

[kingeri]

again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this

Clearly not!

 

[kingeri]

An RCD rated at 32a? Or an MCB rated at 32a? Or an RCBO?

 

[wobblymike]

its an rcd

 

[Deleted member 9648]

again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this

Firstly it is not possible to tell visually if a circuit is a radial or ring without actually tracing the path of the wires....you will need to test to confirm. If the circuit is protected by a 32a MCB...(not RCD??...hope this is a typo?)...then it may be a ring,as a radial will normally be protected by a 20a MCB. But as already stated only testing can confirm whether the circuit is a ring and hence how it should be altered.
The job as you describe it is NOT notifyable to LABC....but still comes under the umbrella of part P and so must be carried out in accordance with bs7671 or you are breaking the law. If you are competant to do it to 7671 then go ahead,there is no restriction on DIY electrics as long as part P is complied with.

 

[KAS1]

What the !!!! sort of question is this, don't you know how to check out cabling to and from sockets etc lol

again thankyou all for your comments all of which i hear and take on board. What i would like to first do is establish if i have a ring or radial circuit. it is wired as follows
sockets excluding cooker are fed via 1 rcd rated at 32a
sockets in bedroom 1 and 2 have 2 sets of connections to each
single socket in bedroom 3 has 1 set of connections to it
this tells ne it is a radial circuit which i find very surprising
would someone please confirm or otherwise my thinking on this

 

[Octopus]

its an rcd

Which signals my time to get my coat. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[KAS1]

Wouldn't he be better off getting a spark to do the job ?

Firstly it is not possible to tell visually if a circuit is a radial or ring without actually tracing the path of the wires....you will need to test to confirm. If the circuit is protected by a 32a MCB...(not RCD...hope this is a typo?)...then it may be a ring,as a radial will normally be protected by a 20a MCB. But as already stated only testing can confirm whether the circuit is a ring and hence how it should be altered.
The job as you describe it is NOT notifyable to LABC....but still comes under the umbrella of part P and so must be carried out in accordance with bs7671 or you are breaking the law. If you are competant to do it to 7671 then go ahead,there is no restriction on DIY electrics as long as part P is complied with.