Fire system recommendations

[Ken_Johnson]

Property is a self contained flat conversion of a large house.

I am required to install a 'domestic' system to each flat along with a separate system for the communal area and have some questions.

1. Some folks have recommended Fike Twinflex Pro, others have recommended Aico. What's the general preference on here?

2. I have confirmed with the independent BCO and he states a Grade D system is sufficient and a panel isn't necessary. However, without a panel, how would the fire brigade know which alarm has gone off?

3. I understand LD2 states "A system incorporating detectors in all circulation spaces that form part of the escape routes from the premises, and in all rooms or areas that present a high risk of fire to occupants".. some of the flats have lobbies - does this mean a smoke detector in the lobby and the main lounge?

Many thanks.

 

[tazz]

Your getting very mixed up here.....are the flats all self contained or HMO.?...how many floor levels...?

 

[Octopus]

Are you planning on getting a HMO licence?

 

[Ken_Johnson]

It's not a HMO. It is a house being converted to self-contained flats. There is a ground, first and second floor. There is a communal entrance to the building which then has a stair case and landing to the FD30 doors of the flats themselves.

 

[tazz]

The main communal circulation areas require a full fire alarm, with detection, call points and sounders on each level. Each individual flat will require Grade D mains/battery detection, optical smokes in circulation areas, and heat within kitchens. This is standard system required under local BC and approved Document B

 

[Ken_Johnson]

The main communal circulation areas require a full fire alarm, with detection, call points and sounders on each level. Each individual flat will require Grade D mains/battery detection, optical smokes in circulation areas, and heat within kitchens. This is standard system required under local BC and approved Document B

1. Call points - the BCO is stating that call points are not required in the communal area, however, as you state, I would rather have them.

2. What exactly is a 'circulation area'?

3. Any recommendations with respect to which system for the flat(s) and communal area?

Many thanks.

 

[tazz]

Circulation areas are landings staircases areas which form an escape route. As such they are required to have a minimum of what needs to be covered by detection. ie LD3 under part 6 or L4 under part1.
Being a 3 level staircase to all flats, I would say a part 1 system covering the entrance, staircases and landings to all flats is required. This would be a full fire alarm system, complete with panel, detection, call points and sounders. Each flat would require a minimum of separate main/battery Part 6 LD3 detection in hallways and any landings. With possible addition of Kitchen taking coverage to LD2

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Circulation areas are landings staircases areas which form an escape route. As such they are required to have a minimum of what needs to be covered by detection. ie LD3 under part 6 or L4 under part1.
Being a 3 level staircase to all flats, I would say a part 1 system covering the entrance, staircases and landings to all flats is required. This would be a full fire alarm system, complete with panel, detection, call points and sounders. Each flat would require a minimum of separate main/battery Part 6 LD3 detection in hallways and any landings. With possible addition of Kitchen taking coverage to LD2

Thanks Tazz.

Three of the flats have a protected lobby. Two of these three have a staircase from the lobby via an FD30 doorl. Would you recommend a SD in the lobby area, staircase and lounge, then a HD near the kitchen area?

With regards to to the communal area, you say a part 1 system is required with a panel. Would this panel show each of the flats as a zone too or just a panel for the communal area?

 

[tazz]

The panel would only show communal areas, usually by level. These areas would be staircases & landing areas to the fd30 entrance doors of each flat

 

[Ken_Johnson]

So what systems would you recommend?

 

[tazz]

Haes, or Kentec panels using 2 wire system with Apollo detection....quick realiable easy to install

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Is 'Alarmsense' the same as being 2 wire? For a HMO what constitutes a 'zone'?

 

[tazz]

Alarmsense is different from 2 wire, but works in the same way as detection and sirens are on the same cable.
11 zones is quite high for domestic Grade A..? most companies have stopped manufactures anything over 8 zones, as its more cost effective to use addressable panels, due to the amount of cabling required by a 16 zone panel

 

[Ken_Johnson]

I edited my post after you posted yours. What constitutes a 'zone' in a HMO? I was reading the Apollo guide to HMOs and it states:

Within an HMO,a Grade A system should be able to identify the location of an alarm. This can be achieved by making each individual dwelling a zone. Therefore,if a fire occurs in a dwelling, onlyone zone would indicate fire, thereby showing fire fighters the source of the fire.


Does this mean each bedroom room is a dwelling and therefore a zone??

 

[tazz]

If they are self contained flats, then usually no detection is required within the flats, only the communal areas......the flats themselves will have separate mains/battery alarms only.....Now BC may have other views, all dependent on their risk assessment.
1. could be communal areas only plus mains detection in flats
2. communal areas and heat/sounder in entrance to flats.
3. fire alarm to open vents only with no sounders, and flats have mains detection.

All 3 are common, and you really need to obtain their risk assessment before installation starts

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Thanks. Sorry, I should have been clear, I am now asking about a traditional house (i.e. not self contained flats) which will be a HMO - let individual rooms.

 

[tazz]

ok HMO will usually request heat/sounder in each room...Plus an individual mains smoke. Idea here is if a fire starts in the room, the mains smoke activates, alerting the occupants.....if the room is empty or fire is intense, the the F30 door will retain for 30 minutes, and the heat detector will activate all areas to evacuate the building.
How many rooms are there..?

 

[Ken_Johnson]

3 bedrooms on 1st floor, 4 on 2nd floor. Ground floor has 3 rooms which may or may not be used as bedrooms. 1 kitchen on ground floor. Cellar (not used as a bedroom).

 

[tazz]

Then you could zone each floor, 3 zones plus staircase zone....4 zones in total. Or method liked by BC, addressable panel showing text for each flat and area....1 loop panel would easily cover building, and would be easily run as one circuit

 

[Ken_Johnson]

1 zone for each floor seems easiest with a Kentec T series panel. What would you recommend in terms of smoke/heat detectors and sounders?

Did you say heat detector (not smoke) and sounder in each room with smoke in the hallways?

 

[tazz]

You will need Sav-wire bases with Kentec 2-wire, so apollo sav bases, with s65 detectors. Fulleon wafer base sounders, kac call points.
from the panel each room would require sounder base, sav base and s65 heat detector, landings entrance, use sav bases & s65 optical smokes. use roshni wall sounders here (base sounders are only for confined areas) Each level and entrance/exits will require call points.
Finally each room will require a separate mains smoke alarm.

Would recommend checking with BC when applying for hmo licence, as each council has different ideas.

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Do I have everything covered with the following?

PANEL - Kentec T11 (two wire):

Kentec Electronics Ltd. :: Sigma CP

Apollo Series 65 Sav Wire Base - 45681-206

Fire Detection Solutions, Apollo Fire Detectors Ltd - Series 65 Sav-Wire Base

Smoke - Apollo S65 optical smoke detector with magnetic test switch and LED - 55000-315

Cooper Fulleon Squashni Micro Base Sounder - for rooms

Fulleon Roshni Sounder, Red - ROLP-R with Shallow Base - for landings.

Call points - KAC Conventional Resettable Call Point 470 ohm - MCP1A-R470SF-01

Heat detector for kitchen - there are different heat detector classes listed (A1R, BR, CR, CS) - what do these mean?

 

[tazz]

All ok apart from optical smoke sensor, you don`t need magnetic test switch....so 55000-317 will be fine.
Heat detectors are set by temp rise of heat, ending in R....so A1R is 57 deg, BR is 75 deg & CR is 90 deg. Suggest you used A1R.
They detect rapid changes in heat.

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Great!

Is the LED light smoke worth getting for visual indication?

 

[tazz]

Your choice, not really needed in HMO, only required in Public buildings, toilets, schools and hotels

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Probably a daft question but in a HMO, how does one tell if a smoke is dodgy and needs replacing? If the system is divided by zone (1 zone per floor), would it just point to the relevant floor?

 

[tazz]

This is why maintenance is imported to test the system at least 2 a year. Im a bit worried that this install maybe a bit above your capabilities.

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Definitely! Not doing it on my lonesome but with an experienced colleague.

Just one more question - is there a SD I could use which has a sounder built in?

 

[tazz]

Definitely! Not doing it on my lonesome but with an experienced colleague.

Just one more question - is there a SD I could use which has a sounder built in?

Yes you could use Apollo Alarmsense equipment. still 2 wire connection. bases come with built in sounders and sounder/strobes.
Kentec also make an Alarmsense panel

 

[Ken_Johnson]

Good shout!

All the components seem to map across except that I don't need separate sounders:

Kentec Alarmsense panel - Sigma CP-A

Apollo AlarmSense Sounder Base - 46581-510 or beacon base 46581-509

Apollo AlarmSense Optical Detectors - 55000-390

Apollo AlarmSense Heat Detector (A1R) - 55000-190

Apollo AlarmSense Manual Call Point - 55000-894

 

[Ken_Johnson]

By the way, is there much in it in terms of Kentec versus Haes?

 

[tazz]

No they are both good panels. I find haes a bit expensive, but they both have alot of programming features not found in other panels.

 

[Harni]

I prefer the new Haes panel to the Kentec ones. Both very good but the new Haes has a lot of features which others dont as Taz says. Plus they are very simple to install with bags of room.