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M

Martin.h.lee

I am preparing 302 written test.
One thing is confusing.

8kw 230 v cooker using T&E pvc cable directly clipped. the circuit is prtected by BSEN 60898 type B circuit breaker.
the run covers 18m. the ambient tempurature is 35 C.

With this given condition, I need to cable size, design current, fuse rating etc.
I did get the answers.
the design current is 34.8A(Ib)
the rating of circuit breaker is 40A(In)
minimum size of cable is 6 mm2

However, one of questions is that "the eath fault loop impedance Zs is 1.12 ohm; does the circuit comply with Bs7671?

I got Zs(max) value 1.15 ohm (from table 41.3 of bs7671), and the measure Zs value is 1.12
Does it complies? The given answer is 'YES'
But I think I need to apply the rule of thumb : Zs> 0.8 X Zs(measured).
If I apply the rule of thumb, then it doesn't comply.

What is your opinion?

I hope I made myself clear for the question.
Thanks
 
you have not applied diversity. use a 32A MCB. Zs will then comply.
 
you have not applied diversity. use a 32A MCB. Zs will then comply.

Interesting one this, I am about to price a kitchen and need to run circuits to a hob rated 27amps and an oven rated 23amps (thats all the info i've been given.) So im gonna put the hob on a 30amp MCB sure, but I was gonna do the same with the oven, I do understand diversity but have never been sure it if applies to the max current of a single peice of fixed equipment (double oven). I do appreciate that you're unlikely to run both ovens at 250 degrees so, my question is, can I put the 23amp oven on a 20 amp MCB?
 
If it is a private house.

27 (-10 * 0.3 +10) = 15.1A
23 (-10 * 0.3 +10) = 13.9A
50 (-10 * 0.3 +10) = 22.0A

You are talking about the Ib(design current)?
I thought I need to apply diversity (according to table 1A and 1B on OSG) for design current. and that is what learn from teacher.
But in every questions about cable sellection, they don't apply diversity on OSG, they just do simple calculation
design current(Ib)= kw/v
that is why I got Ib=34.8A and type MCB of 40A.

I wonder I should apply diversity or not.
which is right?
 
You are talking about the Ib(design current)?
Yes. see definitions in BGB (current carried in normal service).
I thought I need to apply diversity (according to table 1A and 1B on OSG) for design current. and that is what learn from teacher.
Not sure what you mean. I have used 1B.
But in every questions about cable sellection, they don't apply diversity on OSG, they just do simple calculation
design current(Ib)= kw/v
that is why I got Ib=34.8A and type MCB of 40A.
Diversity only applies (and varies) with certain appliances.
I wonder I should apply diversity or not.
If relevant you can.

Show all calculations.

In your example you could run both appliances on 2.5mm² with 25A mcb but normally 6mm² with 32A would be installed.

It depends what they want. Is it just calculations to show you know how or what would be done in real life?



Also, with my comment about Ze.

Do they just want the calculations or do they want you to realise that with a Zs of 1.12Ω on the specified circuit that it is far too high and indicates a problem?

I suppose it depends how far along you are.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This question is what I am struggling with.
I got this question from this forum.
Actually, this question doesn't provide any clue of type of premises(to refer OSG table 1B).
If I assume this installation is for individual houses and there is an incorporated socket-outlet, then diversity applied design current would be
10A+[(8000/230)-10]X0.3+5A= 10+7.43+5=22.43A
therefore fuse rating will be 25A, and Zs(max)=1.84ohm, tabulated current carrying capacity (It) = 27A, cable size 2.5mm2..
The first step of cable sellection is Design current(Ib), from this everything goes differently.
Very confusing.
19 -

An 8kW 230V cooker is supplied using T&E pvc cable clipped direct. The run covers a distance of 18m. The circuit is protected by a BS EN 60898 Type B circuit breaker. The ambient temperature is 35º C.
Determine:
a) The installation method
b) The design current
c) The rating of the circuit breaker
d) The correction factors to be used (if any)
e) The tabulated current carrying capacity It of the cable
f) The minimum cable size
g) The voltage drop
h) The maximum voltage drop allowed
i) The earth fault loop impedance Zs is 1.12Ω; does the circuit comply with BS 7671?
j) The minimum size of cpc required


[h=2]Answer[/h]

The Tables referred to in the answers are from BS 7671:2008
a) Installation Method C (Table 4A2)
b) 34.8A
c) 40A Type B (Table 41.3a)
d) Ca = 0.94 (Table 4B1)
e) It = In / Ca = (40 / 0.94) = 42.6A
f) 6mm[SUP]2[/SUP] (Table 4D5 column 6) can carry 47A
g) 7.3mV x 34.8 x 18 (Table 4D5) = 4573 / 1000 = 4.57V
h) 5% of 230V = 11.5V (4.57V acceptable)
i) Max allowable Zs = 1.15 (Table 41.3) (complies)
j) The minimum size of the c.p.c. is determined by using the Adiabatic Equation S = √(I[SUP]2[/SUP] x t)/K
Where I = the earth fault current, calculated from Uoc/Zs = 230/1.12 = 205A
t = the disconnection time in seconds = 0.1 (Fig. 3.4)
K = the factor determined from Table 54.3 = 115
S = √(I[SUP]2[/SUP] x t)/ K = √(2052 x 0.1)/115 = 64.8/115 = 0.56mm[SUP]2

[/SUP]
 
I don't really know how to answer this.

It is all correct without using diversity.
However, with a cooker, diversity is always used.

A cooker of double the rating could easily be fitted and, without diversity, that would make the results formidable.

As I keep saying -
The R1 + R2 of 18m of 6/2.5mm² after Ca works out at 0.20Ω.
This would leave the Ze as 0.92Ω - not acceptable.

Perhaps it was just a poorly thought-out question.
There's no mention of the socket in the question.
If it's just en exercise to see if you can get the correct answer, then ok but if your career depended on the outcome then querying it could be good.
 

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