"I'm a qualfied spark but I don't have..."

[GT1]

Small rant... Apologies in advance.

However.
Read lots of guys saying "I'm a qualified spark", but "haven't got 2391" or "haven't got 2392" or "please tell me how to pass".. etc etc etc

Now.. I'm not an electrician or a spark or any other descriptor along those lines, because I never had the chance to do 3 years at college.
I returned to this type of work 5 years ago in my late 30's and was previously servicing conveyor machinery on industrial/manufacturing sites across the UK. (amongst doubg some military and other jobs) WAY too old to stop working and go to college.

I studied hard booked on some courses got my regs, heating controls, EAL part P blah blah blah and I passed my 2391 first time out.
I will still never call myself an electrician. (or a spark).
I run my own small business in my spare time which I'm building up ready for when I retire from current full time job in 5 yrs time. I turn over about 5 or 6 small jobs per month.

I know a few electricians. They work on large commercial installs, motors, lighting, 3phase, distribution, as well as domestic etc etc...

Me...
I house bash.. Full stop.

Quite happy with that. I know my limitations, but I know MY stuff too.
I'm signed up to NAPIT, insured and my jobs are all certified to a good standard.

So I may well be part of the "problem" with the industry. ie. not time served.
But I do believe there's a place for me at my level of expertise. If I can't return £20 / hour then I walk. Likewise a CU is £300 minimum labour plus materials.

I repaired a storage heater last week that an "electrician" out the yellow pages failed to spot was just the overheat stat tripped !!

I rarely advertise, and get most of my work through referrals.

Anyway.
My point (rant) is how many times I read the term electrician being used for someone who hasn't got 2391 or some other "significant" qualification.

The problem with the industry is one of identity. ie. how DO you identify competence. Qualifications are one thing, as is a 3 year college course. But it's not the whole story. How much time at college is spent on health and safety, first aid, dealing with complaints, how to write a CV..?

I read a guy on here "qualified spark" studying for 2391 and unable to draw the fault path for TT, TNS, TNCS.
They MUST teach that at college..!

So there you go. Just a late night whinge at knowledge levels and terminology used in the industry.
Not having a dig at any group in particular. But perhaps defending a little, people like me, making the effort to gain and maintain knowledge levels, but defo NOT an electrician. !
There you go.
Message ends.

 

[AP Electrical]

If you're not a spark or electrician what name do you go by ?

 

[wildgoose]

Paper qualifications are no measure for common sense and your practical experiences are priceless.

In many parts of Europe to even get through the door, they want to see your paper qualifications 1st - particularly in Germany!!

In America their priority is "Can you do the job"?

I have worked closely with BSc Hon's Electrical Engineers who were great at thoery but had never made a soldered joint? However, occasionally I was in awe of the ones that had it all!!!!

 

[GT1]

If you're not a spark or electrician what name do you go by ?

Whatever people want to call me..!
My clients obviously call me an electrician, as do NAPIT..! (not that thats worth much)
Its just not a word i use to describe what I do, when im in the company of other people in the business.
Maybe when im retired from the day job I'll take time out and do the 2330.. or whatever is in its place then, and then call myself an electrician.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

There is probably as many very good sparks with grandad rights, as there are with qualifications. No qualification can compete against experience and knowledge.

Cheers...........Howard

 

[mechelec]

What is wrong with the JIB electrotechnical certification scheme? They do at least seem to check qualifications before giving out cards and you need to prove competence to get one.
I wonder why it is not compulsory for all aspects of the industry.
Most Electrical Trainee would only get trainee status.
If this was the recognised "standard measure" And the general public new about it how many would employ a "trainee" to wire their house.
Surely this would help raise the status of approved electrician and help stop the deskilling of the industry.

 

[Adam W]

I don't think anyone would say that experience is a 'bad' thing, but how do you manage to gain years of experience without gaining any qualifications?
Surely that would involve either working as a labourer/mate but without the college part (something people have expressed a dislike for in another thread) or what amounts to doing a Electrical Trainee course?

If the 'grandfathers rights' scheme were run again in, say, 10 or 20 years time, that could involve today's Electrical Trainee who might spend the next 10 or 20 years housebashing 'parrot fashion' (ie brown wire goes here, blue wire goes there, 1.0mm T&E for lighting, 2.5mm T&E for sockets) gaining the same recognition as someone who has taken the trouble to learn all the theory and is capable of working things out and understanding them.

Blagging your way through most situations by using twin & earth (maybe with socket drops into a straight bit of plastic conduit) for 20 years is no substitute for having a couple of years' experience and knowledge of when to use twin & earth, when to use plastic conduit, and when and how to use SWA, MI or singles in steel conduit.

Grandfathers rights may have worked in the past when people left school and went to work with their dad until he retired, then carried on the business until your own son took over, but nowadays people leave the trade, and also enter it later in life, maybe after making a conscious effort to do so.

 

[GT1]

I couldn't agree more. So many in this game get by through luck rather than judgement (knowledge). !

 

[irishsailor]

Being in Military is not an excuse as I managed to go to college (night school) for 3 years to study the 2330 it was 2 evenings a week. I believe if you want it bad enough you can do it! Before I get slammed I have my 2391!!

 

[GT1]

I wouldn't have used military service as an excuse. At the time I wasn't interested in going to college and wasn't in the right branch to have done so anyway.
I came to this industry much later in life although I skirmished with it as a teenager.

 

[GT1]

What is wrong with the JIB electrotechnical certification scheme? They do at least seem to check qualifications before giving out cards and you need to prove competence to get one.
I wonder why it is not compulsory for all aspects of the industry.
Most Electrical Trainee would only get trainee status.
If this was the recognised "standard measure" And the general public new about it how many would employ a "trainee" to wire their house.
Surely this would help raise the status of approved electrician and help stop the deskilling of the industry.

Out of curiousity I rang ECS today about a JIB card.
The only one they can offer me is a labourers card...

 

[Jay Sparks]

Out of curiousity I rang ECS today about a JIB card.
The only one they can offer me is a labourers card...

I did 2 years full time at college doing 2330 lvl 2 & 3. Whilst at college, I worked as a mate/labourer for an electrical firm. I was 27, so no way I could do the nvq, got told I was too old. So I gained the quals and the practical experiance. A few months after college I got my 17th edition. A year after that I passed my 2391. I then applied for an ECS card. I had written statements from my present and previous employers stating my compatence but when the card came I was classed as an adult trainee stage 2. Now I dont proclaim to know everything in this industry but I do believe I am compatent enough to be called an electrician. I know there are many members on this forum that are in the same sort of boat as me, so as long as I know that I am good and proffesional at what I do, then sod JIB. I dont need the weather man to tell me its raining outside!!!!!


Jay

 

[GT1]

Yes I have to say, had I been at all bothered, I could have found the "site labourer" comment a tad insulting..!

I wonder how many fellas there are on building sites carrying bricks up ladders with 2391...!!
haha.

 

[mechelec]

Well as I said previously they do screen applicants before giving out approved electrician cards. Surely this is a good thing? The system should be recognised more widely as a measure of competence. I'm not saying you are not competent jays parks but as you say you had three years training experience which rightly does not make you an approved electrician. For the system to work it has to have a robust assessment procedure or standards slip and it becomes a farce. Just look at part p.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Ive worked with lads that have done there time and got there nvq3 and the approved status but they dont know how to properly test an installtion, or understand why they are getting certain readings. Some of them have said the Zs test is a load of bull. One lad I worked with has been in the trade for 10 years, served his time 5 years ago. We were putting a lighting circuit in a school. He wired the switch down a wall in metal conduit and the bulk head light fitting down the opposite wall with just capping. I asked why? He said, so we dont have to put it on an RCD??? Now obviously the switch would be ok but why only cap the bulk head light fitting? Surely this would have to be in conduit aswell??? So not everyone with "approved status" knows everything. Ive heard people have done the nvq 3 on line in 12 weeks and got there approved status! does this mean there as compatent as someone who did there apprentaship in 3 years? I think each case/person is different and we cant all be chared with the same brush.

Jay

 

[rick.oshea]

I did 2 years full time at college doing 2330 lvl 2 & 3. Whilst at college, I worked as a mate/labourer for an electrical firm. I was 27, so no way I could do the nvq, got told I was too old.
Jay

Jay,

If its the NVQ element holding back on your ECS grading you may want to look into this again - NVQ L3 is not age related - I achieved it last year at the ripe old age of 39

Hope it helps.....

 

[mogga]

2391 proves you can read a book and follow what it says in an exam condition it doesNOT IMHO by any means prove competance on;ly experiance can prepare for what you come across on site how many times have "2391" sparks asked basic questions on here about rewireable fuses ect ect ect ect
Im not saying all apprenticeships provide competance as IMO the day your time is out and your on your firs job with noone holding your hand is when your learning realy starts
Iv worked with guys all over the place one 21yr old "gaffer" who could run the job and follow the book BUT when things he hadnt seen before in buildong came in he was clueless In the same way On the same job a more mature spark 50s couldnt get his head round the wiring of system7 lighting boxes and how they could be group controled Its all about experience and asking questions
This forum is great for asking questions BUT for some guys its their own thought proces that lets them down and the "Iv never seen anything like this before" questions when they have hardly seen anything let alone seen it all BUT they have arms fulll of paper qualifications
personaly after reading SIRCUITSBREAKERS post other day I wouldnt place any trust in NAPIT scheme members
IMO there are to many schemes and providers with differing requirements to make it easy to set up with minimal qualifications and call yourself an electrician

 

[Jay Sparks]

Jay,

If its the NVQ element holding back on your ECS grading you may want to look into this again - NVQ L3 is not age related - I achieved it last year at the ripe old age of 39

Hope it helps.....

I could do the NVQ now but When I was at college I had no access to one, so I did the next best thing and worked as a mate to get the practical experiance. But if im honest, doing the NVQ now would not make my life any better. All I would achieve is JIB status which wouldnt better my career in any way. If I was looking for work, 95% of the jobs advertise dont ask that you have JIB status, just that you have experiance and the normal quals, some do ask for the ECS card but only to get on site.

All Im saying is each person is different and should be judge accordingly.

Jay