New business start up; a few questions.

[ApacheTech]

Hi,

I'm currently writing up a business plan for a new company in the North West; the main disciplines I will be working in are Web Development; Software Development; Risk Based PAT Testing; Cyber Security Training; Social Engineering Awareness Training; and Computer Repairs and Maintenance.

Most of the work is contractual, however the Risk Based PAT Testing will be a source of regular income on a monthly basis, with a lot of seminar and freelance style work in-between. I'm not expecting to make a fortune from PAT Testing, but my ethos is:

"Providing Enterprise level services and support for small business and micro-enterprises".

​

I'm focussing mainly on small businesses, micro-enterprises and sole-traders because of the work and research I've carried out during my dissertation this year.

I have a couple of questions that I cannot find answers to online.

1. How many items, on average, would you expect a small business to have? I know this varies from business to business, but I'm just after a very bal park figure to use for my pricing strategies. For instance:

• Independent Retailer (Tech)
• Family Run Shop (General)
• Small Office
• Used Car Lot/Breakers Yard
• Nursery
• Community Centre

It would be nice to have a Light, Medium and Heavy average for the purposes of financial forecasting.

2. Is using the PAT Testing Distance Learning DVD going to be enough? I have a background in Electrics and Electronics; I have a firm knowledge of Electrical Theory and Electrical Engineering and I have an IET Accredited Honoues degree in Computing and Networking. I have also done some Level 3 Diplomas in Workplace Safety and Health, Project Management and Electrical Studies via ALISON online. Is it worth forking out for the C&G 2377 22 and 32, or should I start with the qualification from the Distance Learning DVD and take the course if I find myself in over my head?

3. Can you do a Electromechanical NVQ while PAT Testing, in order to diversify to be a full Electrician?

4. Is it possible to work towards professional registration with the IET through starting off in PAT Testing or working as an Electrician?

5. How saturated is the PAT Testing market at the moment? I know the changes made in 2012 have put some people off starting up or carrying on with PAT Testing. In my immediate vacinity, there doesn't seem to be anything, but I'm not sure about the North West. I'm looking, realistically, in a 25 mile radius of Chester.

6. Is much of the information you can find online still valid, after the changes made in 2012 to the CoP? There seems to be a lot more emphasis now on merging PAT Testing with traditional Risk Assessment; has there been a shift away from PAT Testing being within the remit of the Maintenance Dept. and more towards the Health and Safety Officer's remit? How has this affected our jobs as outsourced labour?

Thank you for any assistance you can give. Questions #1 and #2 are the greatest concern at this time.

 

[telectrix]

PAT has degenerated into how many stickers can you attach in a day at 50p a go, enough to make it pay.

 

[ApacheTech]

Weren't the 4th Ed. changes supposed to protect businesses against con-men like that?

 

[Octopus]

No chance. Anyone starting up a business doing PAT testing is either nuts or desperate!

 

[ApacheTech]

That's nice to know, but irrelevent to this thread. An answer to the questions would be most helpful.

 

[Octopus]

That's nice to know, but irrelevent to this thread. An answer to the questions would be most helpful.

How???

 

[GMES]

AS Above how is Murdoch's comment irrelevant when you are asking us about PAT testing

 

[ApacheTech]

Maybe, try answering what I have asked. Question #5 asked about a specific geographical area. A blanket wide shrug off the shoulder is not helpful to the discussion. Murdoch, do you have first hand knowledge of the industry, within the specified area of concern? If so, please elaborate. If not, your statement was irrelevent.

 

[telectrix]

and PAT is the only part of your OP that has any relation to electrical work. the rest is well outside of an electrician's scope, so how can we help with that? and wtf is social engineering. the 2 words are incompatible and unrelated.

 

[Octopus]

Maybe, try answering what I have asked. Question #5 asked about a specific geographical area. A blanket wide shrug off the shoulder is not helpful to the discussion. Murdoch, do you have first hand knowledge of the industry, within the specified area of concern? If so, please elaborate. If not, your statement was irrelevent.

I know this to be fact and I live in the so called "affluent" south.

Maybe you should open your eyes and appreciate ALL feed back you are getting!

 

[Guest77]

Maybe, try answering what I have asked. Question #5 asked about a specific geographical area. A blanket wide shrug off the shoulder is not helpful to the discussion. Murdoch, do you have first hand knowledge of the industry, within the specified area of concern? If so, please elaborate. If not, your statement was irrelevent.

Industry lol, a chimp can pat test, and many do at 50p an item, to earn 30k a year after tax and to run a van and to have the right insurance means you will have to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to earn a living, the fact there are not many companies advertising Pat testing in your area is probably because there are a couple of large electrical contractors who own the market in your area and you will struggle to get a bit of the action.

 

[ApacheTech]

Ok, starting with Question #1; who would like to answer that one.

 

[Guest77]

Ok, starting with Question #1; who would like to answer that one.

Depends on what you class as a small business, if 10 staff then maybe 30 items, thats 15 quid for you.

 

[Octopus]

12 -20 items ??

 

[ApacheTech]

Depends on what you class as a small business, if 10 staff then maybe 30 items, thats 15 quid for you.

I put some handy examples up in the OP.

If you are a trainee please let us know, we can assist you with a real answer not a sarcastic one and there is a trainee area for you where mentors are willing to help.

Hi, I'm a trainee. I've placed a few questions at the beginning of this thread. Would you be able to walk me through some answers to my queries? They're not difficult questions, and I've given examples to clarify my question where they are needed, such as in Question #1. I'm not interested in making a lot of money from this one line of work; as I have said in my opening remarks, this is only one part of the business plan I am writing, but it is just as important as the rest of it. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

 

[trev]

"Providing Enterprise level services and support for small business and micro-enterprises".


What are "enterprise level services"?
Wouldn't a "micro-enterprise" automatically be a small business?
If you're throwing stuff like that into a business plan you may as well use "thinking outside the box"or "blue sky thinking"

 

[Octopus]

Is it me or is this thread confusing?

 

[Silly Sausage]

I put some handy examples up in the OP.



Hi, I'm a trainee. I've placed a few questions at the beginning of this thread. Would you be able to walk me through some answers to my queries? They're not difficult questions, and I've given examples to clarify my question where they are needed, such as in Question #1. I'm not interested in making a lot of money from this one line of work; as I have said in my opening remarks, this is only one part of the business plan I am writing, but it is just as important as the rest of it. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

The boys have already answered your questions.
The PAT, or to be correct, ISI&TEE business is a dead dog.
The established testing companies have got it sewn up, paying pennies to agency workers.
You stand NO chance in starting a new business in this game.

Honestly, find something else to do!!!

 

[trev]

Is it me or is this thread confusing?

I was thinking of running that up the flagpole to see who saluted

 

[ApacheTech]

The boys have already answered your questions.
The PAT, or to be correct, ISI&TEE business is a dead dog.
The established testing companies have got it sewn up, paying pennies to agency workers.
You stand NO chance in starting a new business in this game.

Honestly, find something else to do!!!

So far, Q1 has had a very short answer, but no detailed answer, using the examples given. Q5 has been done to death, regarding saturation. The other questions haven't been touched.

Yes, this thread is confusing. I didn't think it would be this hard to get some answers to what really are some very simple questions.

 

[uksparks]

I always like a good laugh before I go to bed, thanks, this has fulfilled my needs for the evening.

 

[Silly Sausage]

OK, last post on this,

Q1: how long is a piece of string?
Q2: I could teach Trev's dog appliance testing.
Q3: see Q2.
Q4: Yes, but it may take a while!
Q5: Soaking bleeding wet.
Q6: Buy the latest ISI&TEE book.

 

[trev]

1 Far too many variables for a meaningful answer to be given.
An independent retailer, for example, independent of what? All businesses are independent to some degree.
A family run shop, how many people are in the family, what are they selling?
How small is this small office? What is done in there?
A used car lot/beakers yard, have you ever been to one of those places? Heater, kettle, radio. that's about it for a lot.
Nursery, plants or children? How big?

2 Is the DvD enough? Enough to do what? To carry out isitee? If I could get our dog to read and write I could get him to do this mate. It's not rocket science.

3 You need to be working in the electrical field to complete an NVQ3

4 No idea, ask them. You might get the answer you want, some members of here are in the IET so one of them may be able to help you more.

5 Answered in full

6 What has affected the tester's job is the race to the bottom as has been described above.

 

[ApacheTech]

OK, last post on this,

Q1: how long is a piece of string?
Q2: I could teach Trev's dog appliance testing.
Q3: see Q2.
Q4: Yes, but it may take a while!
Q5: Soaking bleeding wet.
Q6: Buy the latest ISI&TEE book.

Thank you.

Five down, one to go. Now I only need a sensible answer to Q1.

Anyone?

Honestly, this is like trying to get a quotation from a sp... oh, wait...

 

[Silly Sausage]

I forgot to ask, have you just been on some kind of small business course?
Your original post just reeks of the lingo they'd fill your head with.

 

[trev]

Now, what are "enterprise level services"?

 

[ApacheTech]

No, I did a module on Business Studies in uni a few years back. I did a lot of research during my dissertation on SMEs from a Web Development perspective. I do a lot of network consultancy and systems analysis, bringing businesses networks, hardware, software and website up to date and secure. That's where the Social Engineering comes in, with Information Security. I've been doing this for a while now as a not-for-profit business and I'm now branching it out into a for-profit venture. I would like to offer PAT Testing as a part of the Systems Analysis package, with follow up appointments for aftercare.

I do take the non-flippant feedback to mind though. I'm used to forums where you ask a question and people answer the question you asked, rather than strawmanning the whole thread. I never thought I'd get this reaction, I assumed this was for people to get support and advice.

 

[uksparks]

I can't finds thing sensible to add to this thread.

I got 3x 300g packets of bourbons from ASDA today by the way.... for just £1, on offer.

 

[ApacheTech]

I agree that my wording for the strapline needs work. My main line of expertise is in computing and at least within that field, a distiction is made between small, medium, large and enterprise level companies. Essentially, the larger the company, the better the support. As a 5 user licence holder, the support you get would be pretty minimal, but it you've paid for 15,000 licences then you get round the clock support and are on first name terms with your dedicated advisor.

 

[uksparks]

No, I did a module on Business Studies in uni a few years back. I did a lot of research during my dissertation on SMEs from a Web Development perspective. I do a lot of network consultancy and systems analysis, bringing businesses networks, hardware, software and website up to date and secure. That's where the Social Engineering comes in, with Information Security. I've been doing this for a while now as a not-for-profit business and I'm now branching it out into a for-profit venture. I would like to offer PAT Testing as a part of the Systems Analysis package, with follow up appointments for aftercare.

I do take the non-flippant feedback to mind though. I'm used to forums where you ask a question and people answer the question you asked, rather than strawmanning the whole thread. I never thought I'd get this reaction, I assumed this was for people to get support and advice.

Yeah but you are gong on about computers and the Internet (don't get me started on the Internet as I promise I know more than you on that) and then say you want to make a business out of PAT testing when up pearly have no knowledge whatsoever of testing and wouldn't have a clue what the readings mean or how to interpret them other than pass or fail.

Strawmanning? Is that kind of like a scarecrow?

Oh you will never in a million years make a profitable business out of pat testing. I get my pat tester out every now and then, as it happens I'm doing some tomorrow along with an EICR, but hardly ever get it out, I've probably only made enough money to cover the cost of the power supply for it.

 

[ApacheTech]

Strawmanning? Is that kind of like a scarecrow?

Yes, yes it is. Well done you.

 

[uksparks]

but it you've paid for 15,000 licences then you get round the clock support and are on first name terms with your dedicated advisor.

We are on first name terms here, MDJ, Trev, Archy, Murdoch... I don't recall having to even pay for one licence?

 

[ApacheTech]

We are on first name terms here, MDJ, Trev, Archy, Murdoch... I don't recall having to even pay for one licence?

*slow clap*

 

[Silly Sausage]

No, I did a module on Business Studies in uni a few years back. I did a lot of research during my dissertation on SMEs from a Web Development perspective. I do a lot of network consultancy and systems analysis, bringing businesses networks, hardware, software and website up to date and secure. That's where the Social Engineering comes in, with Information Security. I've been doing this for a while now as a not-for-profit business and I'm now branching it out into a for-profit venture. I would like to offer PAT Testing as a part of the Systems Analysis package, with follow up appointments for aftercare.

I do take the non-flippant feedback to mind though. I'm used to forums where you ask a question and people answer the question you asked, rather than strawmanning the whole thread. I never thought I'd get this reaction, I assumed this was for people to get support and advice.

Fair enough, I think I understand now (I'm an optimist!)
If you're providing hardware, it'll be proven fit for purpose once it leaves your hands.
This PAT stuff is a red herring!

 

[uksparks]

Archy, what are those two lots of 6 digit numbers on your footer? A train? Prison number? Lol?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Grid ref!

I'm off to howl at the super moon!

 

[Guest77]

I put some handy examples up in the OP.



Hi, I'm a trainee. I've placed a few questions at the beginning of this thread. Would you be able to walk me through some answers to my queries? They're not difficult questions, and I've given examples to clarify my question where they are needed, such as in Question #1. I'm not interested in making a lot of money from this one line of work; as I have said in my opening remarks, this is only one part of the business plan I am writing, but it is just as important as the rest of it. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Look now fella how many times do you want an answer, we have told you some Companies are charging 50p an item, we have told you large Electrical Contractors have cornered the market, we have told you a small business of 10 or less people will have between 15-30 items which will need testing, we have told you anyone can pat test, we have told you to forget specialising in it as the market is dead and you will have to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to earn 30k after tax, what else do you want to know?

 

[Octopus]

Look now fella how many times do you want an answer, we have told you some Companies are charging 50p an item, we have told you large Electrical Contractors have cornered the market, we have told you a small business of 10 or less people will have between 15-30 items which will need testing, we have told you anyone can pat test, we have told you to forget specialising in it as the market is dead and you will have to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to earn 30k after tax, what else do you want to know?

Its obviously a trait of youngsters today, ask a question, ignore answers, ask again, ignore answers.............

 

[plugsandsparks]

I suggest some primary research is in order, so ... go out to some of these businesses yourself and count them, you could say you were doing a survey, and if you find any correlation between a business type / market / size / blah blah and number of items please let we know.

 

[amlu]

1. How many items, on average, would you expect a small business to have? I know this varies from business to business, but I'm just after a very bal park figure to use for my pricing strategies. For instance:

• Independent Retailer (Tech)

they don't give a damn or will have a retired sparky doing it for them for years in case they need it.

• Family Run Shop (General)]

they don't give a damn or will have a local sparky doing it for them for years in case they need it. you may get business in case he retires.

• Small Office

they don't give a damn or will have a company doing it for them in case they need it. dropping leaflets or business card may work...

• Used Car Lot/Breakers Yard

they properly don't care.

• Nursery
• Community Centre

those will have some big boys doing testing.


5. How saturated is the PAT Testing market at the moment? I know the changes made in 2012 have put some people off starting up or carrying on with PAT Testing. In my immediate vacinity, there doesn't seem to be anything, but I'm not sure about the North West. I'm looking, realistically, in a 25 mile radius of Chester.

see above.

 

[ApacheTech]

Look now fella how many times do you want an answer, we have told you some Companies are charging 50p an item, we have told you large Electrical Contractors have cornered the market, we have told you a small business of 10 or less people will have between 15-30 items which will need testing, we have told you anyone can pat test, we have told you to forget specialising in it as the market is dead and you will have to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to earn 30k after tax, what else do you want to know?

I've said many times now that I'm not looking to make 30k p/a from this. I'm not really looking to make much money at all from it. I've just asked some simple questions, and although I know how to answer Q5 now in every language since Latin, I still have to find a response that actually answers what I have asked for Q1. "12-30 but don't bother" is not an answer to the question I have asked. A number against each example. Is that really too difficult?

I suggest some primary research is in order, so ... go out to some of these businesses yourself and count them, you could say you were doing a survey, and if you find any correlation between a business type / market / size / blah blah and number of items please let we know.

Let you know? Are you joking? I can't even get a straight answer to the question from anyone on here, other than a miserly "12 - 30 but don't bother".

1. How many items, on average, would you expect a small business to have? I know this varies from business to business, but I'm just after a very bal park figure to use for my pricing strategies. For instance:

• Independent Retailer (Tech)

they don't give a damn or will have a retired sparky doing it for them for years in case they need it.

• Family Run Shop (General)]

they don't give a damn or will have a local sparky doing it for them for years in case they need it. you may get business in case he retires.

• Small Office

they don't give a damn or will have a company doing it for them in case they need it. dropping leaflets or business card may work...

• Used Car Lot/Breakers Yard

they properly don't care.

• Nursery
• Community Centre

those will have some big boys doing testing.

How hard would it be, just to put a number? A ball park figure, whether they care or not. It's not much to ask for. That's all I want. A number against each example. Is that really too difficult?

 

[Plonker 3]

I haven't read the whole thread, got a bit bored after the first few posts. But every business is completly different in what equipment they have that would require PAT, so how the hell do you expect a sparky to know?

 

[ApacheTech]

Ball. Park. Figures.

I'm asking, in a PAT Testing Forum, how many items disparate businesses, on average, would need testing. I ask here, because, being a forum dedicated to PAT Testing, it is frequented by people who may have tested appliances at such businesses and might be able to give me a broad figure, based on past experience. I appreciate that not everyone on this forum will have had this experience a priori; and I also appreciate that the current climate within the PAT Testing "industry", if you can call it that, is not conducive with start up companies. This is, however, a part of my due dilligence.

 

[Guest77]

I've said many times now that I'm not looking to make 30k p/a from this. I'm not really looking to make much money at all from it. I've just asked some simple questions, and although I know how to answer Q5 now in every language since Latin, I still have to find a response that actually answers what I have asked for Q1. "12-30 but don't bother" is not an answer to the question I have asked. A number against each example. Is that really too difficult?




Let you know? Are you joking? I can't even get a straight answer to the question from anyone on here, other than a miserly "12 - 30 but don't bother".



How hard would it be, just to put a number? A ball park figure, whether they care or not. It's not much to ask for. That's all I want. A number against each example. Is that really too difficult?

Gasp this really is getting silly now, you have had the answer several times yet still think you haven't, I'm outta here you will be pleased to hear, if anyone else helps you I will be suprised.

 

[trev]

Ball. Park. Figures.

How many items do I have in my home that could need testing?
How many items do I have in my lock up that could need testing?
How many items does my wood butcher mate Keith have that could need testing?
What about Vic Young Nissan Dealership?
What about McNulty's marine repair yard?
What about the Nissan Plant in Washington?
There's no bloody way of knowing without going direct and asking them!
What is a must have item for one business is something which will gather dust for another so they'll not bother buying it. You may as well guess.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I'm sure someone could formulate an equation to calculate the number of items that any one business would require testing.
Something akin to this maybe... :smilielol5:

The Drake equation is:

where:
N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which radio-communication might be possible (i.e. which are on our current past light cone);and
R[SUB]*[/SUB] = the average rate of star formation in our galaxy
f[SUB]p[/SUB] = the fraction of those stars that have planets
n[SUB]e[/SUB] = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
f[SUB]l[/SUB] = the fraction of planets that could support life that actually develop life at some point
f[SUB]i[/SUB] = the fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop intelligent life (civilizations)
f[SUB]c[/SUB] = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space[SUP][8][/SUP]

 

[trev]

Voluntarily deleted.

 

[oldAL]

sorry,
I know its an old thread,
but just reading this got me wound up,
as someone said,
OP asked a Q, didnt get the answer he wanted so kept asking the same Q.

Im a small business,
probably got about 70-80 items that need PAT, im a spark BTW,
so that includes everything from my cordless chargers, site radio, 230 stuff, 110 stuff, printer/pc/laptop/tablet etc etc etc in office,
my mate is also a small business, he is a brickie, [does a job writes a receipt in a book]
I dont think he has anything that needs PAT,
so its a stupid Q
btw, what is the difference between a small business and a micro enterprise and all this other gobbliedegook?

 

[ApacheTech]

Thank you for your response. I did mention taking average numbers. If your brickie friend has no need for PAT, then he is automatically written out of any further conversation. You have nearly three times the items quoted previously within this thread. I am aware of the severe variance within numbers of items; hence asking people who may have done hundreds of site visits, for average values.

A micro-enterprise is a company that employs between 0 - 9 members of staff. A small business is a company employing 10 - 250 members of staff. Medium businesses employ between 251 - 1000 members of staff, and a large business employs 1001+ members of staff.

 

[Guest77]

. I'm not really looking to make much money at all from it.

Well you will certainely get your way regarding this comment.