RCD Protection for submains

[TJC1]

Evening all

We have been asked to do some redial work picked up by a testing company i a hostel. It has been picked up that is no RCD protection in the rooms

There are 5 submain circuits that feed the 20 consumer units, 4 consumers units per submain (B32) Each room have a consumer unit which has two double sockets off a 16a radial and a lighting.

They asked my advice on whether to change the submain MCB to RCBOs or whether to change the consumer units for main switch and RCBOs

They supply cables to each consumer unit are above a plasterboard ceiling but cant be sure of the installation method, does the submain need to be RCD protected? As i dont want to put RCBOs on each circuit and also on the submain also

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 26818]

No. I use the current version of BS7671 only. I do not use any other versions when doing EICRs.

So where does it say in the 18th that sockets likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside require RCD protection?

 

[Nigel]

If so then why are you agreeing with it?

When it was installed will not change my coding. You would change your coding based on when it was installed. Very odd.

 

[Nigel]

So where does it say in the 18th that sockets likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside require RCD protection?

411.3.3

 

[Deleted member 26818]

411.3.3

Nope.

 

[mydigitalhome]

Discrimination between the boards is required possibly 100mA and 30mA at the local DB. As others have said it’s in the regs.

 

[Bait Account]

When it was installed will not change my coding. You would change your coding based on when it was installed. Very odd.

Yes I would and you've already said you would as well. So if it was installed yesterday or back in 2007 you would give a socket outlet that could supply outdoor equipment a C3.

 

[Nigel]

Nope.

Yep

 

[Nigel]

Yes I would and you've already said you would as well. So if it was installed yesterday or back in 2007 you would give a socket outlet that could supply outdoor equipment a C3.

Errrr no! I never said that.

I very clearly said I would c2 it regardless of date of installation.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It says socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A.
Does not say sockets which are likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Errrr no! I never said that.

I very clearly said I would c2 it regardless of date of installation.

Then you said C3 if the socket wasn’t likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside.

 

[Nigel]

It says socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A.
Does not say sockets which are likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside.

If you cannot read then I cannot help you.

 

[Bait Account]

If I come across a socket that is likely to feed portable equipment outside without an RCD installed that was installed prior to RCDs being a requirement that will be a C2. End of.

Just as if I come across a fused neutral that was installed when they were allowed.

Are you saying that it would be a different code, if the socket was not likely to feed portable equipment outside?

Yes. I would code that C3.

Errrr no! I never said that.

I very clearly said I would c2 it regardless of date of installation.

Don't think you did bud.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If you cannot read then I cannot help you.

Lol.

 

[Nigel]

Then you said C3 if the socket wasn’t likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside.

Yes because one is deemed potentially dangerous and one is advisable to improve but not dangerous. Really quite simple.

 

[Ian1981]

It says socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 32A.
Does not say sockets which are likely to be used to feed portable equipment outside.

So how do you power your mobile equipment outdoors?
Most people plug their mobile equipment ie a lawnmower into a socket outlet for use outdoors.

 

[Nigel]

It's you that's being ****ing stupid. I'm not the one contradicting myself.

I am not contradicting myself. If you are unaware of why sockets likely to feed portable equipment outside have different levels of danger to sockets that don’t then I am willing to help you through that but it may take some time and be a little embaressing for you. Feel free to start a thread about it and I will school you.

 

[Nigel]

So how do you power your mobile equipment outdoors?
Most people plug their mobile equipment ie a lawnmower into a socket outlet for use outdoors.

Must be a nightmare for Spin to do the grass. Having to keep hard wiring the lawnmower into a rotary isolator.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So how do you power your mobile equipment outdoors?
Most people plug their mobile equipment ie a lawnmower into a socket outlet for use outdoors.

Absolutely, and they should use RCD protection when they do that. As per the requirements of BS7671.
That requirement can be satisfied by use of an RCD protected socket, an RCD plug or an RCD adapter.
There is no longer a requirement to provide RCD protection to a socket, just because it might be used to feed portable equipment outside.

 

[Bait Account]

I am not contradicting myself. If you are unaware of why sockets likely to feed portable equipment outside have different levels of danger to sockets that don’t then I am willing to help you through that but it may take some time and be a little embaressing for you. Feel free to start a thread about it and I will school you.

I might just do that for the comedy value bud even though I know the different levels of danger. Might be funny to see how a lump of pork can educate anyone.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Must be a nightmare for Spin to do the grass. Having to keep hard wiring the lawnmower into a rotary isolator.

Why would I need to hardwire my petrol lawnmower?

 

[Ian1981]

Absolutely, and they should use RCD protection when they do that. As per the requirements of BS7671.
That requirement can be satisfied by use of an RCD protected socket, an RCD plug or an RCD adapter.
There is no longer a requirement to provide RCD protection to a socket, just because it might be used to feed portable equipment outside.

But there’s a requirement to provide additional protection to all sockets upto 32 amps regardless, the risk is higher the fact that you maybe using portable equipment outdoors, so as the inspector you need to risk assess and weigh up that risk.
If people are using equipment outdoors which is not rcd protected or the socket outlet they are using then the risk of danger has increased

 

[Nigel]

I might just do that for the comedy value bud even though I know the different levels of danger. Might be funny to see how a lump of pork can educate anyone.

So you know why one is C2 and the other is C3?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I am not contradicting myself. If you are unaware of why sockets likely to feed portable equipment outside have different levels of danger to sockets that don’t then I am willing to help you through that but it may take some time and be a little embaressing for you. Feel free to start a thread about it and I will school you.

You might want to consider learning to read, before offering to teach.

 

[Ian1981]

Is it just me, when replaying to a comment the dam site freezes and you end up posting the same message twice!

 

[westward10]

If members cannot post comments without throwing insults then leave the thread. This is an old debate which often raises temperatures and some posts have been deleted.

 

[Nigel]

Is it just me, when replaying to a comment the dam site freezes and you end up posting the same message twice!

Instead of posting again just refresh page. Your post will only appear once. Happens to me all the time. Very annoying.

 

[Ian1981]

Instead of posting again just refresh page. Your post will only appear once. Happens to me all the time. Very annoying.

It’s on my iPhone
I’m getting the eyes of the wife!
Better go

 

[Deleted member 26818]

But there’s a requirement to provide additional protection to all sockets upto 32 amps regardless, the risk is higher the fact that you maybe using portable equipment outdoors, so as the inspector you need to risk assess and weigh up that risk.
If people are using equipment outdoors which is not rcd protected or the socket outlet they are using thus the equipment Thein is not protected,then the risk of danger has increased

See when I do Inspections, I do them to the current edition.
Any non-compliances, I then quote the Regulation that’s not being complied with.
I don’t make up a Regulation, or borrow one from 11 years ago.

Again we have this ‘might’ rear it’s ugly head.
Should we code that someone might install a socket within 3m of a bath or shower?
What else should we code for, that people might do?

 

[Ian1981]

See when I do Inspections, I do them to the current edition.
Any non-compliances, I then quote the Regulation that’s not being complied with.
I don’t make up a Regulation, or borrow one from 11 years ago.

Again we have this ‘might’ rear it’s ugly head.
Should we code that someone might install a socket within 3m of a bath or shower?
What else should we code for, that people might do?

I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that I inspect to the current edition.
The fact a homeowner for example with a rear or infact any garden is very likely to use mobile equipment outdoors by plugging into a near socket outlet makes it a fact and not a ‘might ‘
A simple question to the homeowner or client about their use of equipment can point you in the right direction about how they use the installation.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think I’ve made it abundantly clear that I inspect to the current edition.
The fact a homeowner for example with a rear or infact any garden is very likely to use mobile equipment outdoors by plugging into a near socket outlet makes it a fact and not a ‘might ‘
A simple question to the homeowner or client about their use of equipment can point you in the right direction about how they use the installation.

So that would be using mobile equipment outdoors without RCD protection, code C2.
Not, socket might be used for something outdoors code C2.

 

[Ian1981]

So that would be using mobile equipment outdoors without RCD protection, code C2.
Not, socket might be used for something outdoors code C2.

When did I say a C2 for anything to do with a socket outlet?
Yes I agree the context of the code should be for the fact equipment being used externally has no additional protection.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

When did I say a C2 for anything to do with a socket outlet?

Don’t know?

 

[Nigel]

Some threads are just so painfull.

It is so simple.

 

[Ian1981]

spin As always it’s been........ draining

 

[45140]

The EICR is simply that.

You are reporting on the condition of the installation not how people might use the installation.

You cannot proceed on the basis of what someone might do otherwise you would code everything at least a C2. Supposing the householder has a gardener who uses a petrol lawnmower ??.

I can see it being recommended but only if it was obvious that equipment was being used outside and certainly what you are proposing is not what I was taught.

 

[Ian1981]

The EICR is simply that.

You are reporting on the condition of the installation not how people might use the installation.

You cannot proceed on the basis of what someone might do otherwise you would code everything at least a C2. Supposing the householder has a gardener who uses a petrol lawnmower ??.

I can see it being recommended but only if it was obvious that equipment was being used outside and certainly what you are proposing is not what I was taught.

And suppose you ask the homeowner if they use equipment outdoors plugged into a socket outlet and they answer yes?
Inspect on the facts and ask questions if need be ,to assist yourself
Commercially,ask for any risk assessment for omission of rcd protection to socket outlets then code appropriately on whether there is or there isn’t.
Asking the client for additional information can make all the difference

 

[Deleted member 26818]

And suppose you ask the homeowner if they use equipment outdoors plugged into a socket outlet and they answer yes?

Then that’s use of mobile equipment outdoors without RCD protection.
Not oh that socket might be used for equipment outdoors.

Inspect on the facts and ask questions if need be ,to assist yourself
Commercially,ask for any risk assessment for omission of rcd protection to socket outlets then code appropriately on whether there is or there isn’t.
Asking the client for additional information can make all the difference

Yes, inspect on the facts, use the current edition and don’t make things up.

 

[Ian1981]

Your point being ?
Are we going round in circles here or what?
Ultimately if the source of power for the external equipment has no rcd protection,then the equipment has no rcd protection unless they use a plug in rcd adapter which in most cases is evident or can be questioned

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Your point being ?

That you should code in accordance with BS7671.
i.e. don’t code a socket for non-compliance with a requirement that was dropped 11 years ago.

 

[Ian1981]

That you should code in accordance with BS7671.
i.e. don’t code a socket for non-compliance with a requirement that was dropped 11 years ago.

Looks like I’m the victim of a wind up here.
Enjoy your evening