Ripped off by cowboy

[Midwest]

Not sure I understood your last question, Midwest. The other wall has electrics on it but I left it out for now because it’s passable.

The existing installation has to be adequate for the new alteration or addition, which includes earthing & bonding. In my experience with some kitchen refurbs I did, some additional works were required. Not impressed with whats been done here, so not confidant your existing install has been checked for its suitability.

 

[Midwest]

If I find someone, can you advise on specific, clear instructions to conclude the job ASAP?

No we can't basically. You need to source a suitable competent electrician. The use of web sites such as Check a Trade etc etc, do not vouch for competency. Not the Schemes can validate competency, but at least they verify qualifications, insurance, test equipment etc.

Competent Persons Register | Home - https://www.competentperson.co.uk/

Word of mouth, is another good route in choosing a trades person.

 

[Sintra]

Guys,

The 2nd electrician has done a runner. He did not turn up today. Despite confirming on whatsapp on Thursday and despite new chasing having been instructed based on his new requirements.

Both electricians were sourced via mybuilder.

I am cornered and need to move quickly.

What’s the least amount of work necessary to finish this job?

Maybe you are just hard work and both have realised that. The least amount of work is a kitchen rewire, not bodging about with the existing wiring.

 

[Str82ais]

The existing installation has to be adequate for the new alteration or addition, which includes earthing & bonding. In my experience with some kitchen refurbs I did, some additional works were required. Not impressed with whats been done here, so not confidant your existing install has been checked for its suitability.

The entire flat has been EICR’ed and it’s fine.

 

[Str82ais]

Maybe you are just hard work and both have realised that. The least amount of work is a kitchen rewire, not bodging about with the existing wiring.

Let’s not have a client vs trade battle here.

Define “hard work” — yes, I am looking for a discount on your quote and yes I do ask you to repeat the information you stated. Professionals are used to being questioned, people with a chip on their shoulder can’t handle it. They start pulling a fast one and try to deceive and trick and fool.

 

[Str82ais]

No we can't basically. You need to source a suitable competent electrician. The use of web sites such as Check a Trade etc etc, do not vouch for competency. Not the Schemes can validate competency, but at least they verify qualifications, insurance, test equipment etc.

Funny you say that, Midwest, because if you look up in the earlier posts, you’ll find people taking me to task on how well I instructed. I do think that absolute clarity in the instruction is very useful.

 

[Midwest]

Funny you say that, Midwest, because if you look up in the earlier posts, you’ll find people taking me to task on how well I instructed. I do think that absolute clarity in the instruction is very useful.

I don’t quite understand?

 

[telectrix]

sometimes clarity can be taken for interfering. just find a sparks and tell him to put it right, then get out of his way.

 

[Des 56]

sometimes clarity can be taken for interfering. just find a sparks and tell him to put it right, then get out of his way.

That is the advice that has been desperately needed to be given to him after the common sense advise he seems reluctant to accept

 

[westward10]

That line of four outlets looks suspiciously like a multiple outlet spur. As others have said any self respecting electrician will rip that lot out and start again.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

Well if hes on checkatrade complain to them about him. They will take him off the site and might stop him fleecing others.

Is that the stance they take in reality?
I thought that, like many advertising schemes posing as public services, provided you keep paying your £70/month (or whatever they charge), they stay happy unless of course they get hundreds of adverse feedbacks, or a feature on Watchdog. Maybe wrong, but doubt it somehow.

 

[Sintra]

Let’s not have a client vs trade battle here.

Define “hard work” — yes, I am looking for a discount on your quote and yes I do ask you to repeat the information you stated. Professionals are used to being questioned, people with a chip on their shoulder can’t handle it. They start pulling a fast one and try to deceive and trick and fool.

What are you jabbering on about now?

 

[westward10]

Checkatrade is a contradiction in terms because they don't check any trade.

 

[SJD]

Define “hard work” — yes, I am looking for a discount on your quote and yes I do ask you to repeat the information you stated.

Some people will over-price so as to be able to give a discount. I don't, I've just never liked working that way. You might find this approach puts some people off. If someone tells me they have found someone cheaper, I usually advise them to go with the cheaper quote if they are happy with it.

 

[Deleted member 105166]

Define “hard work” — yes, I am looking for a discount on your quote and yes I do ask you to repeat the information you stated. Professionals are used to being questioned, people with a chip on their shoulder can’t handle it. They start pulling a fast one and try to deceive and trick and fool.

Out of interest, why would a sparks want to give you a discount for rewiring a small kitchen? If you were a regular customer and a sparks is looking after half a dozen rental properties for you too, or there is another bigger job coming up, then possibly. Otherwise no, there's no shortage of good work in London, no discounts on parking and no discounts on fuel, despite buying it from the same garage 2 or 3 times a week.

There's also a fine line between questioning a trade to reasonably understand something as a customer/consumer/end user may find useful, and questioning to the point of doubting a professional tradesman and becoming a bloody nuisance in the process.

You mentioned early on you cut code. I'm sure if one of your customers kept debugging your C++ files and questioning aspects of how and why you've coded in a particular way, you'd quickly get arsey about it.

Treat the trade as you like to be treated yourself, then you'll find 99% of people you meet will be genuine, helpful and go the extra mile to ensure you're satisfied with their work.

 

[Str82ais]

I don’t quite understand?

I don’t quite understand?

I asked: can you advise on specific, clear instructions to conclude the job ASAP? You replied by saying you can’t advise. I am saying that it’s important because when things don’t end well, people blame the client for not having instructed properly.

 

[Str82ais]

sometimes clarity can be taken for interfering. just find a sparks and tell him to put it right, then get out of his way.

That’s unprofessional and I doubt the regulating bodies recommend such “get out of the way” advice.

My idea of a professional is that they understand their job well and CAN handle questions and respond well to clarity of instruction.

 

[Str82ais]

That is the advice that has been desperately needed to be given to him after the common sense advise he seems reluctant to accept

What common sense have I been reluctant to accept? Are you just all ganging up on me now!

 

[Str82ais]

Out of interest, why would a sparks want to give you a discount for rewiring a small kitchen? If you were a regular customer and a sparks is looking after half a dozen rental properties for you too, or there is another bigger job coming up, then possibly. Otherwise no, there's no shortage of good work in London, no discounts on parking and no discounts on fuel, despite buying it from the same garage 2 or 3 times a week.

There's also a fine line between questioning a trade to reasonably understand something as a customer/consumer/end user may find useful, and questioning to the point of doubting a professional tradesman and becoming a bloody nuisance in the process.

You mentioned early on you cut code. I'm sure if one of your customers kept debugging your C++ files and questioning aspects of how and why you've coded in a particular way, you'd quickly get arsey about it.

Treat the trade as you like to be treated yourself, then you'll find 99% of people you meet will be genuine, helpful and go the extra mile to ensure you're satisfied with their work.

All wonderful points. Let me take’em one by one.

Whether you like it or not, there’s HUGE disparity in quotes for the same job by trades. I am not a professional landlord, I am a first time buyer and am renovating the flat. I am not sitting on a big heap of dough nor am I going to get my money back by tagging onto the rent. Anyone who respects themselves will negotiate and try to get the best deal. There is HUGE disparity between your quotes, guy. Cannot repeat this enough.

I do question. I don’t interfere. I am not trying to cast doubt until I SEE evidence of it. I do pay attention to goings on.

I personally would love it if people sat next to me and double-checked my code. Not while I am coding but afterwards is absolutely fine. And I promise you I won’t throw a fit if they point at inconsistencies or say something is missing or not done at an adequate standard. But many of the trades that I encountered blabber on immediately about costing extra haven’t got all day and other stuff that does show them for their true colours. Many trades are not aware that we clients/customers are putting our lives/money/safety/aesthetics in their hands. They don’t give a ----.

 

[westward10]

No one is ganging up on anyone, from your pics the work currently undertaken is verging on DIY capability so you either need to address this or draw a line under it. Move on and find an electrician who will start from scratch but detail your requirements from the offset then leave them to it.

 

[The Ghost]

No ganging up, promise! So from the few pics you supplied, agree with others on here the install standard is apprentice/DIY level. Did you or the contractor do the plastering (bonding) around the sockets? Anyway it is really hard to advise on what to do exactly as questions will arise as to what sort of supply you have and what is supplying what at your fuseboard. But if you can help us to help you we should be able to advise on a likely course of action and perhaps a ballpark figure for the work. I am genuinely sympathetic to your bad luck in getting two in a row non completers.
So I think the supply to the boiler would have a FCU next to it for isolation. And agree the cable to the boiler ideally would be replaced from the consumer unit. I note you have two Switch fused connectors adjacent to a socket and unless they are separately supplied from the consumer unit I would have to do something about that. The cable draping up the wall on the new bonding coat needs to be buried and oval conduit in the wall with it. So pictures of the supply end showing the "fuse box" and all the supply gubbins could be good to show whether you have RCD protecting the circuits in the kitchen. What about lighting? The last time I charged over a grand for a kitchen is when it was done in galvanised steel conduit throughout. I just say the above to provide another point of view which confirms the consensus. We do get people on here and they talk of a fictional electrician while in truth they are doing the work themselves seeking professional advice on how to complete their botched work. So unfortunately you might have to deal with some skepticism and or "checking" on your credentials.

 

[SparkyAndGeorge]

You sound like a nightmare customer.

 

[Jim_e_Jib]

Draw a line under what has happened so far. You have an empty kitchen so a blank canvas for an electrician to rewire from scratch.

It sounds as if you know exactly what is going where in the kitchen so draw up some plans of where you'd like sockets, switches and so on. Find two or three electricians to quote. If you can, find them through recommendation from friends or family. Show them what you would like and where. Listen to their advice and recommendations and take them on board, making changes to your plans as necessary.

Decide which electrician feels right to you and ask them to do the work.

Pay what they ask for. Good work will always have a price.


On a different note, is that a new concrete floor or just some self levelling compound on top of an existing floor? If it's the former, there appear to be copper pipes that are in direct contact with the concrete below the window next to the boiler. Copper and concrete are not happy bedfellows.

 

[Str82ais]

Many thanks, Vortigern.

I attach a picture of the fuseboard. Only the blue cable is fed directly into the kitchen.

I understand the scepticism ... First, I was asked to name and shame. Then subsequently the post was withheld. Then people started implying Nigel has done nothing wrong, asking for proof. After I document, people start accusing me of being the problem. Come on ...

I am very grateful and have been giving likes to the posts that are genuinely helpful. Many thanks.

I managed to book three electricians to quote for Monday. Fingers crossed it works out.

 

[Str82ais]

Many thanks for the advice, Jim.

On a different note, is that a new concrete floor or just some self levelling compound on top of an existing floor? If it's the former, there appear to be copper pipes that are in direct contact with the concrete below the window next to the boiler. Copper and concrete are not happy bedfellows.

Self-levelling compound. On top of concrete.

You are right: the gas copper pipes were found to leak (they’re in concrete). These are no longer being used. The water pipes will remain a ticking time bomb (there’s been a couple of floodings in the block) but that’s a block-wide problem and above my pay-grade.

 

[Barry123]

whats under the tapped mcb, smoke alarm?

 

[Midwest]

No we can't basically. You need to source a suitable competent electrician. The use of web sites such as Check a Trade etc etc, do not vouch for competency. Not the Schemes can validate competency, but at least they verify qualifications, insurance, test equipment etc.

Competent Persons Register | Home - https://www.competentperson.co.uk/

Word of mouth, is another good route in choosing a trades person.

The entire flat has been EICR’ed and it’s fine.

I attach a picture of the fuseboard. Only the blue cable is fed directly into the kitchen.

I am very grateful and have been giving likes to the posts that are genuinely helpful. Many thanks.

I managed to book three electricians to quote for Monday. Fingers crossed it works out.

Have you used the link I posted to find your new electricians, or used recommendations?

Before doing any electrical work, I would have your EICR looked at again. Some of those cables (blue & 4 x orange), that appear to be going into your 'fuseboard', do not look to be typical standard cables used in a domestic property.

 

[Midwest]

I asked: can you advise on specific, clear instructions to conclude the job ASAP? You replied by saying you can’t advise. I am saying that it’s important because when things don’t end well, people blame the client for not having instructed properly.

We've advised its not to an acceptable standard, and to seek advise from a competent electrician. To say anymore, would be giving guidance on how to install electrical equipment. Not suggesting you would, but members are not allowed to give a diy step by step guide.

 

[cliffed]

It’s a mess.

 

[Str82ais]

whats under the tapped mcb, smoke alarm?

If I recall correctly that’s for the blue oven cable.

 

[westward10]

Looks like you have an old modular wiring system there, Octoflex or something similar. That is not a blue cable as such it is a blue tube containing separate conductors.

 

[Str82ais]

We've advised its not to an acceptable standard, and to seek advise from a competent electrician. To say anymore, would be giving guidance on how to install electrical equipment. Not suggesting you would, but members are not allowed to give a diy step by step guide.

No need for excessive cynicism. This thread has been on for 3 days now and I am CLEARLY not attempting a DIY job. Please tell me you don’t think I am going through this big deception to get you guys listing out the steps.

I am not sure the NICEIC and other regulating/advisory bodies recommend that somebody with an electrical problem should just call an electrician in and sit back. That’s what some electricians may like but that’s wrong ethically and morally. In case something goes wrong, both parties need to be clear what they want and what will be delivered.

When I ask for clarity of instruction, I am not asking for a 123 list of steps. I am asking for the tasks that you believe need addressing to increase my safety. I specifically said I am trying not to pay again all over so am looking for the most important bits that need addressing. Telling me to lie back, daddy’s home, and pay what I get told, smacks of tradesmen closing ranks and agreeing to fleece a customer.

Many other respondents have been very helpful and I am thanking them and am very grateful for everyone’s engagement. But I also have to speak out when I find someone trying to be helpful to me and also trying to get me to shut my eyes.

Like I said when I first replied to you, Midwest: when there’s problems, the first things tradesmen say is: “well what did you instruct him to do, what was the quote for?” So, let’s agree that this is a legitimate question and that I am not trying to short-circuit anyone or pull a fast one. I am the victim here.

 

[Sintra]

And that’s your side of the story.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Why? is the over cable blue? is this some sort of arctic flex cable

 

[telectrix]

Why? is the over cable blue? is this some sort of arctic flex cable

maybe it's cold and/or miserable.???

 

[Midwest]

No need for excessive cynicism. This thread has been on for 3 days now and I am CLEARLY not attempting a DIY job. Please tell me you don’t think I am going through this big deception to get you guys listing out the steps.

I am not sure the NICEIC and other regulating/advisory bodies recommend that somebody with an electrical problem should just call an electrician in and sit back. That’s what some electricians may like but that’s wrong ethically and morally. In case something goes wrong, both parties need to be clear what they want and what will be delivered.

When I ask for clarity of instruction, I am not asking for a 123 list of steps. I am asking for the tasks that you believe need addressing to increase my safety. I specifically said I am trying not to pay again all over so am looking for the most important bits that need addressing. Telling me to lie back, daddy’s home, and pay what I get told, smacks of tradesmen closing ranks and agreeing to fleece a customer.

Many other respondents have been very helpful and I am thanking them and am very grateful for everyone’s engagement. But I also have to speak out when I find someone trying to be helpful to me and also trying to get me to shut my eyes.

Like I said when I first replied to you, Midwest: when there’s problems, the first things tradesmen say is: “well what did you instruct him to do, what was the quote for?” So, let’s agree that this is a legitimate question and that I am not trying to short-circuit anyone or pull a fast one. I am the victim here.

I think you getting hold of the wrong end of the stick here.

When my car requires repairs or a service, I take to the local garage I’ve used for years. I trust them to carry out the work; if they say the big ends gone, I just say how much, and then get them to fix it.

I have tried to help, suggesting the governments competent scheme. Have you had a look there?

If you’ve had an EICR done, what did it say about the blue and orange cables. They are not normal standard cables?

 

[Dustydazzler]

maybe it's cold and/or miserable.???

That's what my wife says I am

 

[Toneyz]

These orange and blue looking cables as Westward has mentioned is a prewired conduit system with singles in it I remember it being advertised in the 80/90's as Aricon in P.E magazine.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Ah yes wasn't it used almost exclusively for 1970/80s pre fabs ?

 

[Midwest]

These orange and blue looking cables as Westward has mentioned is a prewired conduit system with singles in it I remember it being advertised in the 80/90's as Aricon in P.E magazine.

Argh, just noted that.