what do you call this fuse?

[1Justin]

I came across this at a customer's place.



Semi - enclosed ceramic but it pre-dates BS3036. The iron break-out (yes it is is bonded..) enclosure is "Callender" branded and dates from when the house was built (1930's).

I will pull the fuse next visit and measure/check the wire diameter. I am expecting 60A but not sure. The Callender brand ceramic holder says "Carry 30, 60 blow" but that will be pretty meaningless. The customer says the fuse blew some years ago and was replaced. (I have checked - it does contain a fuse and not a nail.

I could replace the wire next visit with known 60A so I can correctly document it ? - But that belongs to DNO and not my bit to alter. Would you do this - or just rely on the Vernier & 533.1.1.3 ? DNO seemed happy with the fuse (by visual inspection only isofar as there was one!) without even checking it - see later.

60 A is adequate for the customer (with a little constructive diversity) and is limited to that anyway by 16mm tails to the meter.

I shall probably assume the worst-case for short-circuit capacity of newer BS3036 S1A type (ie 1KA). - This still covers me for the measured PFC.

Installation is TNS, lead sheathed supply cable with double layer spiral steel banding.

I had the DNO round before touching anything to provide the installation with a new MET clamped to the lead sheath since first thing I did was measure 8 Ohms Ze. (There was no MET, and a teeny single strand Cu wire earthing conductor wrapped round the sheath and probably corroded) - Now a better figure Ze (0.33) from which to begin.

I was very surprised that DNO guy said they have changed their policy recently, and now they won't replace break-outs like this even if they are 80 years old.

But what type of fuse do I record? (For supply protective device in EIC) ? I could just put "semi-enclosed fuse", 60A (TBC after inspection), and assume 1KA rated short circuit capacity. - Would that be reasonable?

 

[Engineer54]

It's still classed as BS 3036 protection, as are all rewireable fuses.... By the way the arrangement shown in your photo say's it's TN-S not TNC-S...

The DNO shouldn't of been happy with this service cut-out, in fact they have been instructed to replace all such iron clad rewireable service heads nationwide by 2011, which they haven't complied with.

 

[malcolmsanford]

To be honest I don't think there is a lot more you can really do, but cater for worse case here. Your take on it being S1A and 1Ka is pretty fair.

Not sure what you mean by it being an TNC? it is either a TN-C-S or a TN-S and by the looks of things it is certainly not a TN-C-S. What was your Ze reading by the way?

 

[Engineer54]

What was your Ze reading by the way?

Stated in the OP's post mate!! lol!!

first thing I did was measure 8 Ohms Ze. (There was no MET, and a teeny single strand Cu wire earthing conductor wrapped round the sheath and probably corroded) - Now a better figure Ze (0.33) from which to begin.

Yep, first thing you need to do on your next visit home, is a trip to SpecSavers!! lol!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Hmmmm this obvious lack of ability to read things is a worry now mate ..................lol I can't play the age card well not with you Col

 

[Engineer54]

Hmmmm this obvious lack of ability to read things is a worry now mate ..................lol I can't play the age card well not with you Col

I have the same problem at times, ...not reading the post i'm replying to, too closely!! And it has unfortunately, nothing to do with my glasses!! lol!!

 

[1Justin]

ooops typo guys sorry I did mean TNS when I wrote it. Corrected now to save future confusions..

Thanks for the comments.

It's interesting to hear from Engineer 54:

The DNO shouldn't of been happy with this service cut-out, in fact they have been instructed to replace all such iron clad rewireable service heads nationwide by 2011, which they haven't complied with.

 

[Des 56]

ooops typo guys sorry I did mean TNS when I wrote it. Corrected now to save future confusions..

Thanks for the comments.

It's interesting to hear from Engineer 54:

Too late I'm afraid
I have had to meticulously read each sentence to find the offending words and failed but all has now been revealed lol

 

[ezzzekiel]

fred? ok maybe not but i think it looks like a fred

 

[telectrix]

pre-empted by ezzz. was going to say that i once had a fuse like that and called it albert, just because it looked victorian.

 

[ian.settle1]

Hmmmm this obvious lack of ability to read things is a worry now mate ..................lol I can't play the age card well not with you Col

You definately should go to specsavers if there is a branch in lovely Riyadh

 

[shocking_eg]

ring up DNO. they will get the head changed pretty quickly free of charge.
and they usually will convert to TNC.

 

[Johnuk]

its a old fuse lol,

 

[Carnegstar]

No ability to seal it off either

 

[timo1]

I am happy to don my big yellow gloves and pull a fuse but I personally would leave that, I'd worry it would break in my hand. I'd be much happier if it was changed, are you sure you cant smell what you think is burning lol, and while they are there...

 

[shocking_eg]

Just say the lid has been lost

 

[Steve_P]

I'd call it Harold.

 

[1Justin]

Hi Shocking:

ring up DNO. they will get the head changed pretty quickly free of charge.
and they usually will convert to TNC.

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...8154-what-do-you-call-fuse.html#ixzz2DWeGYIPN

Actually no because that's what I did do to get a MET (which wasn't 8 ohms!) and to ask for a new head. When the guy came round, he said they don't change these any more despite the age. He clamped on a new earthing conductor to the lead cable and left me to it.

I guess if customer was to go for a supply upgrade than they would do so, but probably unwilling to pay.

Actually it can be sealed with a wire (ring at top) but it's hardly IP4x though!

 

[Engineer54]

Hi Shocking:





Actually no because that's what I did do to get a MET (which wasn't 8 ohms!) and to ask for a new head. When the guy came round, he said they don't change these any more despite the age. He clamped on a new earthing conductor to the lead cable and left me to it.

I guess if customer was to go for a supply upgrade than they would do so, but probably unwilling to pay.

Actually it can be sealed with a wire (ring at top) but it's hardly IP4x though!

Get in touch with ofgem (or whatever the regulating body is called) and complain, that you have asked for this unit to be replaced and told by your DNO that they no-longer change these old iron clad porcelain rewirable fuse cut-outs.

These old iron clad with porcelain rewireable fuses have been deemed too dangerous for continued maintenance, (Health & Safety ruling) and as such had an undertaking from the DNO's to replace all these cut-outs by 2011, which they still haven't fully complied with. And no, it's not customer chargable upgrade

 

[1Justin]

Hi Engineer 54. Thank you. That confirms what I had thought. I'm ringing them now! Will report back..

 

[1Justin]

Hi Engineer 54

I rang the guy who does the quotes for DNO and he says yes the policy has changed probably a month ago and they don't change cut-outs, even 80 year old ones with rewirable fuses like this one. He was very nice about it, but told me it was policy.

He did say I could try and blag it with the Supply and Installation Manager which is what I am going to try next...

 

[shocking_eg]

Like I said if they don't change it for whatever reason just magically loose the cover to the head
Then let them try and make it IP rated lol

Done the same recently to a 3phase head

They came out and replaced head the same day as it was classed as an emergency because it was dangerous!

 

[Stroppy]

Whack it with a wooden-handled sledge-hammer, then they'll have to replace the pieces with something decent. Come to think of it, throw the hammer at it from quite a distance.

I love ancient stuff like this. I often wonder how old the oldest installation still in use is? There has to be some seriously vintage stuff around still.

 

[1Justin]

Well I'll keep the hammer option till I find one again.

As I had the guy round on Monday, if it breaks tomorrow I believe they may suspect something!

 

[Engineer54]

Hi Engineer 54

I rang the guy who does the quotes for DNO and he says yes the policy has changed probably a month ago and they don't change cut-outs, even 80 year old ones with rewirable fuses like this one. He was very nice about it, but told me it was policy.

He did say I could try and blag it with the Supply and Installation Manager which is what I am going to try next...

I think your being told crock of crap, however nice this guy was!! lol!! I advised you to call/contact the regulatory body, not the DNO again... As this was a H&S directive taken up by the regulatory body, basically to safeguard the DNO's own staff and sub-contractors, i can't see how policies can suddenly change!!!

 

[1Justin]

Hi Engineer 54.

I had a ring about but there is a limit to how much time I can spend on this. So far have been fobbed off.

I rang ombudsman http://www.ombudsman-services.org/contact-us-energy.htmland they said it was nothing to do with them, and must be a policy passed down by Ofgem consumer affairs. - not sure if that was right because this is not exactly consumer stuff.

I ran Ofgem http://www.ukenergy.co.uk/pages/ofgem.html02079017295 and their computer-thing said quite clearly they will not consider any complaint without it having passed through the supplier/DNO first and referred me straight back to DNO for policy.

I need to get on, but it's all open still.

 

[shocking_eg]

Leave it how you found it ?

 

[malcolmsanford]

I had a quick read of the ESQCR-2002 and think that the DNO Engineer maybe right. Below is an extract from the document concerning changing cast/old heads

2(3) to 2(7)
iii) Pre-1937 cut-outs with fuses in earth or neutral conductors must be removed from service by 2013.

I can't see anything else in the document regarding age of heads

The OPs picture certainly does not show a fused earth or neutral and so I suppose to the law the DNO don't have to be made to change it.

 

[1Justin]

2(3) to 2(7)
iii) Pre-1937 cut-outs with fuses in earth or neutral conductors must be removed from service by 2013.

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...54-what-do-you-call-fuse-2.html#ixzz2DnbWnM9N

Yep, that's what the DNO guy told me, - that they were obliged to change it (obviously) if fuse was in neutral. (are there really these about?), otherwise they leave it.

 

[Engineer54]

I had a quick read of the ESQCR-2002 and think that the DNO Engineer maybe right. Below is an extract from the document concerning changing cast/old heads

2(3) to 2(7)
iii) Pre-1937 cut-outs with fuses in earth or neutral conductors must be removed from service by 2013.

I can't see anything else in the document regarding age of heads

The OPs picture certainly does not show a fused earth or neutral and so I suppose to the law the DNO don't have to be made to change it.

The article i read referred to cast iron service cut outs with ceramic rewireable fuses. It seems that they had more than a few operative accidents with these things breaking apart on removing tight fitting fuse carriers... Let's face it, apart from any personal safety issues, any ceramic rewireable cut out fuse has long past it's suitability and usefulness

 

[1Justin]

Well I'll be wearing the rubber gloves when I pull this one later in the week!

 

[Stroppy]

Best of luck, you'll probably find a nest of Dodo's living behind it!

 

[MikeyT]

Sounds very similar to a C/U swap we did the other week, main fuse cover had no seal and loose - so was partly open to show a fused neutral - and a strap around the sheath which ended up testing to show no connection to any supplied earth.... Needless to say that the C/U was a complete mess in the same cupboard too small for Frodo!

I also got everything upgraded on my house a couple of months ago before I rewired, and just told them it's could possibly be a fused neutral, the guy came out and changed it no quibble for me.