Pre-election budget

[andyb]

When far fewer votes cast

Turnout has been falling ever since then, I imagine every election has been won with fewer votes.

 

[Diddy]

Isn't it funny how people's memory fades. In 1992 John Major and the conservatives had the highest number of votes cast by the electorate for any single party in UK history yet he only got a very slim majority.

But in 1997 New Labour got a landslide with far fewer votes and far more seats.

Go figure

My memory serves me fine thanks. I did not mention about Major's vote share, I believe I was referring to the fact that he presided over the country as PM for roughly two years before putting himself before the electorate not much different (maybe 9-10 months). Yet nobody was crying about the fact that we had an unelected PM.....fast forward to Brown and all hell breaks loose. Just pointing out that it was/is double standards. "They" were out to get Brown from the start of his premiership. They being Labour's own Blairites who never forgave him for forcing Blair out plus the Tories (as is expected) plus the media which is to this day pretty right wing (in my opinion).
Major's vote share got him elected so I can't really see your point, Apart from the fact that the Tories were so busy arguing and back stabbing each other (As they still are today) that Major in a similar way to Cameron today just can't coral them into a focussed party with a clear set of policies and goals. Milliband is the same - he can't get the warring factions within the Labour party to pull together for a common goal. The Blairites are still bitter and vengeful, the left of the party feel isolated and ignored, the Scottish have had enough of them and the unions are getting stick from their membership for continuing to financially support them.....Tough old job IMHO.
Both of the big two have neglected their core vote in the chase for the middle ground swing voter. I preferred it when there was a clear choice and clear direction for both parties.....true to their roots. I still maintain that Labour would have won in 1997 with a much more socialist agenda....But they did fix a hell of a lot that the 17 year tory government had left to rot (NHS/Schools/services ect ect).

 

[telectrix]

.But they did fix a hell of a lot that the 17 year tory government had left to rot (NHS/Schools/services ect ect).

a matter of opinion. labour, whether true socialists or watered down tories, could not fix a leaky tap.. schools where 80% of pupils don't have english as a first language. NHS where you can't understand what the doctor is saying, need i go on?

 

[Octopus]

My memory serves me fine thanks. I did not mention about Major's vote share, I believe I was referring to the fact that he presided over the country as PM for roughly two years before putting himself before the electorate not much different (maybe 9-10 months). Yet nobody was crying about the fact that we had an unelected PM.....fast forward to Brown and all hell breaks loose. Just pointing out that it was/is double standards. "They" were out to get Brown from the start of his premiership. They being Labour's own Blairites who never forgave him for forcing Blair out plus the Tories (as is expected) plus the media which is to this day pretty right wing (in my opinion).
Major's vote share got him elected so I can't really see your point, Apart from the fact that the Tories were so busy arguing and back stabbing each other (As they still are today) that Major in a similar way to Cameron today just can't coral them into a focussed party with a clear set of policies and goals. Milliband is the same - he can't get the warring factions within the Labour party to pull together for a common goal. The Blairites are still bitter and vengeful, the left of the party feel isolated and ignored, the Scottish have had enough of them and the unions are getting stick from their membership for continuing to financially support them.....Tough old job IMHO.
Both of the big two have neglected their core vote in the chase for the middle ground swing voter. I preferred it when there was a clear choice and clear direction for both parties.....true to their roots. I still maintain that Labour would have won in 1997 with a much more socialist agenda....But they did fix a hell of a lot that the 17 year tory government had left to rot (NHS/Schools/services ect ect).

You are trying to compare 1990 to 2007 - thats 17 years and to be honest, a lot has changed, both politically AND in media terms in that period. Least of all New Labour and the "spin" machine.

Said it before and will state it again - most of them, from all parties are useless numpties and need to be sacke - to be replaced by people who have done real jobs for a minimum of 15 years and have lived in their constituancies for a minimum of 10 years.

 

[Octopus]

What do you want us to figure?

Labour got a landslide with a far larger percentage of the vote.

Lets try FACTS shall we boys:

1992 - The Conservatives polled 41.9% of the votes and won 336 seats, Labour polled 34.4% and won 271 seats (total votes cast to the winning party = 14, 093,007)

1997 - The Conservatives polled 30.7% of the votes and won 165 seats, Labour polled 43.2% and won 418 seats (total votes cast to the winning party = 13, 518,167)

I'd hardly say that the "extra" 1.3% of the votes is "far larger" is it?


You need to go back to the election in 1931, to find an election when a single party poled more that 50% of the vote!

 

[andyb]

Lets try FACTS shall we boys:

1992 - The Conservatives polled 41.9% of the votes and won 336 seats, Labour polled 34.4% and won 271 seats

1997 - The Conservatives polled 30.7% of the votes and won 165 seats, Labour polled 43.2% and won 418 seats

I'd hardly say that the "extra" 1.3% of the votes is "far larger" is it?


You need to go back to the election in 1931, to find an election when a single party poled more that 50% of the vote!

I really do not know what point you are trying to make, please make it and we can all move on.

However it's not 1.3%
It's a 7.5% larger share of the turnout voted Conservative in 92 whereas in 97 Labour polled a 12.5% larger share of the vote, that's a 66.6% increase.

You can do a lot with statistics

There was an election in 1992, The Tories won
There was an election in 1997 Labour won.

Due to our electoral system, a small percentage increase in votes will lead to a disproportionate increase in seats.

In 92 the LibDems polled over 40% of the the votes that the Tories did but received less than 6% of the seats that the Tories did.

Go figure (to coin a phrase)

 

[Anthony S]

Get in there Nick Clegg and the Libs lol

 

[Silly Sausage]

............

and, you could almost say that the number votes and percentage splits are almost irrelevant, it's where they are cast, ie which constituencies.
The number of MPs is never proportional to the number votes in our system. Hence Liberals, or whatever they're called, always haggling for electoral reform.
One reason why they keep changing the boundaries.

Has there ever been an majority (or close) of one party's MPs with a lower than highest total votes? (can't be bothered looking)

 

[Guest77]

Everyone trusts the tories don't they?

 

[Silly Sausage]

That's why Parliament is London.
The highest concentration of Rhinoplastic (Reduction) Surgeons is in London.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]:smilielol5:

 

[Diddy]

.But they did fix a hell of a lot that the 17 year tory government had left to rot (NHS/Schools/services ect ect).

a matter of opinion. labour, whether true socialists or watered down tories, could not fix a leaky tap.. schools where 80% of pupils don't have english as a first language. NHS where you can't understand what the doctor is saying, need i go on?

schools where 80% of pupils don't have english as a first language.

So is this the norm then ? Does it impact you ? If there were enough teachers and schools would you feel differently or is it just the fact that "they" are here ?
During the New Labour era and continuing today we built and refurbished a lot of Schools.....That is a fact. Now you could mention PFI....and you would then have a semi valid point...but im afraid your point that I quoted is lost on me.

NHS where you can't understand what the doctor is saying, need i go on?

Again I just don't see the point you are making here - Personally I just thank the doc/nurse for my treatment and move on....It really matters not one bit to me what accent the person treating me has. Fact time again - If it were not for them who you can't understand then you would not have an NHS. Again this is a fact because we as a country are unwilling to pay "properly" through direct taxation for UK citizens to be trained and we also want everything as cheap as we can have it......IE we rape the skills of other countries.
We are all happy to pay carers min wage until they are sent to care for one of our own....THEN we want a nice middle class brit to appear. Well not for <£7 per hour they are not....

 

[Octopus]

I really do not know what point you are trying to make, please make it and we can all move on.

So Labour won in 1997, with fewer votes, and a larger population.

1.3% of the votes is the difference.

It maybe Friday but history and the FACTS need to be recognised. Many of you, and yes I include YOU, have VERY SELECTIVE memories.

 

[andyb]

So Labour won in 1997, with fewer votes, and a larger population.

1.3% of the votes is the difference.

It maybe Friday but history and the FACTS need to be recognised. Many of you, and yes I include YOU, have VERY SELECTIVE memories.

What on earth do you mean by selective memories? I'm not even sure what the argument is here. You are saying that in 1997 Labour polled 1.3% less votes than the Tories did in 1992. And?
You win elections not by comparing your share of votes with the previous election, but by comparing your number of votes with that of other parties in that election.
Where are going with this? what point are you trying to make?
Please read post 56

Oh and by the way, there was a larger turnout in 92 than 97. I say this not to make any point, but just to correct your statement. I assume that by population you mean turnout.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Everyone trusts the tories don't they?

I do, exhibit 1 - Employment up 143,000 compared with the previous quarter - ONS
exhibit 2 - UK National Debt | Economics Help
exhibit 3 - I am better off and so are my customers, so easy for me to decide what to do in May.

Of course debt is still rising and sadly the cost of servicing it now costs the equivalent of a large government dept, like defence, fancy speeding so much on interest you loose a whole area of government, madness.... and why I will never vote labour , despite them being taught at the best schools , they still cannot grasp basic economics. They are more interested in re-distribution of wealth, whatever that means, than having a country that can easily afford its services. Whilst we have this chronic debt, it will NEVER happen.

ALL IMHO

 

[Guest77]

1. Tories have axed 576 Sure Start Centres (evidence)
2. Bankers' Bonuses rise by 64% in just 1 year (evidence)
3. Food Bank usage has grown by 700%+ in 3 years (evidence)
4. 1 million are now employed on Zero-Hours Contracts (evidence)
5. The Disabled have suffered real term cuts of 1.7% this year in benefits (here)
6. 52,701 firms have been declared Insolvent (Q2 2010 to Q2 2013) (evidence)
7. 379,968 persons have been declared Insolvent (Q2 2010 to Q2 2013) (evidence)
8. Unemployment is 20,000+ higher today than May 2010 (evidence & here)
9. Private Rental Homes costs £9,084 to rent (£1,128 up from Apr 2010) (evidence & here)
10. Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010 (evidence)
11. Council Tax rises imposed on the poor & disabled have led to 450,000 being dragged to courts since April (evidence)
12. 1 million people have had to sell their family home to pay for Elderly Care in the last 5 years (in fairness that include 2 years of a Labour government). Cameron promised no one would have to sell their family home to pay for elderly care (evidence here)
13. More than 250,000 Disabled people have been forced to take place in the Work Programme unpaid (here)
14. Water Charges are up 20% since 1 Apr 2010 (here, here, here)
15. 20% of Law Firms are facing bankruptcy and 500 shut in 6 months amid Legal Aid cuts (evidence)
16. Stamp Prices are up 46-56% since May 2010 (evidence)
17. Suicide Rates have climbed 8% in just 1 year reaching their highest levels since 2004 (evidence)
18. Number of Children in Class Sizes of more than 30 has doubled in a year (here)
19. Free Schools are under-subscribed but they get more money per pupil & freeze out poor kids (here, here & here)
20. Tories axed 5,000 Firefighters and hundreds of Fire Stations. Evidence of the impact in London alone (here)
21. Waiting Lists for families seeking to rent social housing have soared to record highs (evidence here)
22. Housing Benefit Bill has climbed to more than £20 billion as Private Landloards cash in with record rents (evidence)
23. The number of Cancelled Operations in our NHS have doubled and are at their worst for 8 years (evidence)
24. OBR predict Household Debt will grow more than £500bn this parliament thus continuing Labour's awful record of encouraging personal debt (here)
25. The Tories sold the Royal Mail for 50% less than it's now valued (evidence)
26. Gas Prices are up 31% since May 2010 (evidence)
27. Homelessness is up 28-34% since May 2010 (evidence & here)
28. Rough Sleeping in London has grown 85% since Boris Johnson became Mayor (evidence)
29. House Building, last year, fell to a 90 year peacetime low (evidence)
30. Electricity prices are up 22-39% in price since May 2010 (evidence)
31. The UK suffered a 97% drop in Affordable House starts in 6 months under Grant Shapps (evidence)
32. £12bn+ of NHS has been put up for sale under this government (evidence)
33. 33% of NHS Walk In Centres have been axed (evidence)
34. Wage Growth is just 0.7% which is much lower than inflation (evidence)
35. Profit Tax is to be cut by 25% (from 28% to 21%) (evidence)
36. 3.5 million now live in Child Poverty as Tory welfare cuts & sluggish wage growth bite (evidence)
37. 800,000 more households are living in Fuel Poverty & this excludes the impact of recent price rises (evidence)
38. Numbers of Working Poor have doubled in 3 years & include homes with 2.2mill children (evidence)
39. Numbers living in temporary accommodation have grown 11.4% since Q2 2010 (here)
40. 'The 50p rate' High Earner Tax was cut by 10% (from 50p to 45p) (evidence)
41. VAT Tax was hiked by 14% (from 17.5% to 20%) (evidence)
42. EMA was scrapped for 500,000 as drop out rates climb (evidence)
43. Bedroom Tax clobbered 660,000 of which 2/3rs are disabled & 1/4 single parents (evidence)
44. The Tories and their Lib Dem pals trebled Tuition Fees (evidence)
45. Record number of PFI contracts signed in the first year of a Tory government (evidence)
46. Bus Fares are up 22% under the Tories (here, here, here)
47. £5bn spent on back to work schemes that are less than 2% successful (evidence)
48. 7,968 Hospital Beds Axed (evidence)
49. Rail Fares are up 27% since 2010 (here, here)

 

[Guest77]

double post

 

[andyb]

1. The Number of GCSE Students getting A/A* Grades has fallen by 6% since 2010 (From 22.6 to 21.3)
2. 35,000 Police personnel have lost their jobs under the Tories (evidence)
3. 42,000 Armed Forces personnel to lose their jobs even though £2bn went unspent (here & here)
4. Tories abolished Equality Impact Assessments to cover up the immorality of their policies (here)
5. Tories lost several court cases against NHS closures & the Risk Register (eg here)
6. The Tories halved a worker's right to 90 days Redundancy Notice (here)
7. £168m in donations raked in by Tories including £20m from Private Health (evidence)
8. Chair of UK Statistics Authority tells Gove to stop lying about Education (here)
9. Chair of UK Statistics Authority tells Hunt to stop lying about NHS Spending (here)
10. Chair of UK Statistics Authority tells Cameron to stop lying about Debt Reduction (here)
11. National Debt has risen £447 billion (evidence)
12. NHS Spending did not rise as promised (evidence)
13. NHS 'Never Events' have more than trebled (evidence)
14. NHS Negligence complaints lodged have increased 49% since 2010 (evidence & here)
15. 35,000+ NHS Staff have been axed (evidence)
16. 5,000 Firefighters have been axed (evidence)
17. Minimum Wage rises have been below inflation every year of Tory rule (evidence)
18. University Applications fell by 6% in Jan 2013 (here)
19. 20 Treatments are no longer free on the NHS in parts of England (evidence)
20. 10 Prisons have been axed & 4 more are to close (evidence & here)
21. 4 Profit Making Prisons have been opened (evidence)
22. The Tax Gap has grown by £3bn to £35bn in the last year alone [evasion/avoidance] (evidence)
23. 6% of Prison Cells have been cut in 1 year (evidence)
24. £829m cut from the Children's & Families Budget (evidence)
25. The percentage of A-Level Students getting A/A* has fallen 3% since 2010 (here)
26. Food Prices are up 19% under the Tories (evidence)
27. 11,000 Fat Cat NHS Bosses given a 13% pay hike while nurses pay frozen (evidence)
28. At least a third of Ambulance Stations have been axed since 2010 (evidence)
29. NHS GP Funding cut by £400 million (evidence)
30. NHS Funding For Cancer, Stroke & Heart Patients cut by 12-26% (evidence)
31. A&Es waiting times at their worst for 8+ years (here)
32. Michael Gove overspent £1bn on Free Schools & Academies at State Schools expense (evidence)
33. NHS Direct was axed and replaced by a botched and fragmented NHS111 (evidence)
34. NHS Patient Satisfaction went from record high under Labour to record low under Tories (evidence)
35. Government wasted £1.4 billion on NHS Staff Redundancy Payouts (evidence)
36. Government axed a plan to rebuild 715 Crumbling Schools (evidence)
37. Just 3% of CEOs in the FTSE 350 are Women & Cameron has fueled a more Sexist tone to our politics (evidence & here)
38. 31% of UK women have suffered Domestic Abuse and it has risen in 25% after the Tories came to power. Legal Aid cuts, police cuts & the Bedroom Tax make it harder for women to escape it (evidence & here)
39. Tories cut Child Benefit for middle-class families while giving tax cuts to millionaires (evidence)
40. Number of people Working Unpaid is at a 13 year high (evidence sheet 3)
41. The Government used your taxes to fund Racist Vans that drove around London warning immigrants to "Go Home". The Advertising Standards Authority has now banned them (evidence)
42. 1.8 million workers now earn less than the National Minimum Wage (evidence)
43. More than 600,000 Public Sector workers have been axed (evidence sheet 4)
44. Job creation: There were more workers born in the UK employed in Britain in Jul-Sept 2010 than 3 years later on 30 June 2013 (sheet 8 rows 64-76)
45. On world disability day the Tories shut 36 Remploy Factories axed 1,000 disabled workers (here)
46. Job Creation: 70% of new jobs created in the UK under the Tories have gone to non-UK citizens which makes a lie of the Tory claim they've created a million new jobs (sheet 8 rows 64-76)
47. 95 Tory Fat Cat Academy Bosses rake in more than MPs with the top 10 giving themselves £2million between them (evidence, evidence)
48. The Tories have Privatised Educational Services, Auditing, Consultancy and Prison Services worth £5 billion (evidence & here)
49. Were it not for Ed Miliband & the pressure of the UK public Cameron would have taken us to war in Syria.
50. Tories have Privatised 1 major NHS Hospital, have put another major hospital up for sale and have handed 12 community hospitals to profiteers (here, here & here)
51. Sure Start Funding has been cut by 28% as Cameron breaks his SureStart promise (evidence)

But they did knock 1p off a pint.

 

[Guest77]

1. Tories have axed 576 Sure Start Centres (evidence)
2. Bankers' Bonuses rise by 64% in just 1 year (evidence)
3. Food Bank usage has grown by 700%+ in 3 years (evidence)
4. 1 million are now employed on Zero-Hours Contracts (evidence)
5. The Disabled have suffered real term cuts of 1.7% this year in benefits (here)
6. 52,701 firms have been declared Insolvent (Q2 2010 to Q2 2013) (evidence)
7. 379,968 persons have been declared Insolvent (Q2 2010 to Q2 2013) (evidence)
8. Unemployment is 20,000+ higher today than May 2010 (evidence & here)
9. Private Rental Homes costs £9,084 to rent (£1,128 up from Apr 2010) (evidence & here)
10. Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010 (evidence)
11. Council Tax rises imposed on the poor & disabled have led to 450,000 being dragged to courts since April (evidence)
12. 1 million people have had to sell their family home to pay for Elderly Care in the last 5 years (in fairness that include 2 years of a Labour government). Cameron promised no one would have to sell their family home to pay for elderly care (evidence here)
13. More than 250,000 Disabled people have been forced to take place in the Work Programme unpaid (here)
14. Water Charges are up 20% since 1 Apr 2010 (here, here, here)
15. 20% of Law Firms are facing bankruptcy and 500 shut in 6 months amid Legal Aid cuts (evidence)
16. Stamp Prices are up 46-56% since May 2010 (evidence)
17. Suicide Rates have climbed 8% in just 1 year reaching their highest levels since 2004 (evidence)
18. Number of Children in Class Sizes of more than 30 has doubled in a year (here)
19. Free Schools are under-subscribed but they get more money per pupil & freeze out poor kids (here, here & here)
20. Tories axed 5,000 Firefighters and hundreds of Fire Stations. Evidence of the impact in London alone (here)
21. Waiting Lists for families seeking to rent social housing have soared to record highs (evidence here)
22. Housing Benefit Bill has climbed to more than £20 billion as Private Landloards cash in with record rents (evidence)
23. The number of Cancelled Operations in our NHS have doubled and are at their worst for 8 years (evidence)
24. OBR predict Household Debt will grow more than £500bn this parliament thus continuing Labour's awful record of encouraging personal debt (here)
25. The Tories sold the Royal Mail for 50% less than it's now valued (evidence)
26. Gas Prices are up 31% since May 2010 (evidence)
27. Homelessness is up 28-34% since May 2010 (evidence & here)
28. Rough Sleeping in London has grown 85% since Boris Johnson became Mayor (evidence)
29. House Building, last year, fell to a 90 year peacetime low (evidence)
30. Electricity prices are up 22-39% in price since May 2010 (evidence)
31. The UK suffered a 97% drop in Affordable House starts in 6 months under Grant Shapps (evidence)
32. £12bn+ of NHS has been put up for sale under this government (evidence)
33. 33% of NHS Walk In Centres have been axed (evidence)
34. Wage Growth is just 0.7% which is much lower than inflation (evidence)
35. Profit Tax is to be cut by 25% (from 28% to 21%) (evidence)
36. 3.5 million now live in Child Poverty as Tory welfare cuts & sluggish wage growth bite (evidence)
37. 800,000 more households are living in Fuel Poverty & this excludes the impact of recent price rises (evidence)
38. Numbers of Working Poor have doubled in 3 years & include homes with 2.2mill children (evidence)
39. Numbers living in temporary accommodation have grown 11.4% since Q2 2010 (here)
40. 'The 50p rate' High Earner Tax was cut by 10% (from 50p to 45p) (evidence)
41. VAT Tax was hiked by 14% (from 17.5% to 20%) (evidence)
42. EMA was scrapped for 500,000 as drop out rates climb (evidence)
43. Bedroom Tax clobbered 660,000 of which 2/3rs are disabled & 1/4 single parents (evidence)
44. The Tories and their Lib Dem pals trebled Tuition Fees (evidence)
45. Record number of PFI contracts signed in the first year of a Tory government (evidence)
46. Bus Fares are up 22% under the Tories (here, here, here)
47. £5bn spent on back to work schemes that are less than 2% successful (evidence)
48. 7,968 Hospital Beds Axed (evidence)
49. Rail Fares are up 27% since 2010 (here, here)
50. The Number of GCSE Students getting A/A* Grades has fallen by 6% since 2010 (From 22.6 to 21.3)
51. 35,000 Police personnel have lost their jobs under the Tories (evidence)
52. 42,000 Armed Forces personnel to lose their jobs even though £2bn went unspent (here & here)
53. Tories abolished Equality Impact Assessments to cover up the immorality of their policies (here)
54. Tories lost several court cases against NHS closures & the Risk Register (eg here)
55. The Tories halved a worker's right to 90 days Redundancy Notice (here)
56. £168m in donations raked in by Tories including £20m from Private Health (evidence)
57. Chair of UK Statistics Authority tells Gove to stop lying about Education (here)
58. Chair of UK Statistics Authority tells Hunt to stop lying about NHS Spending (here)
59. Chair of UK Statistics Authority tells Cameron to stop lying about Debt Reduction (here)
60. National Debt has risen £447 billion (evidence)
61. NHS Spending did not rise as promised (evidence)
62. NHS 'Never Events' have more than trebled (evidence)
63. NHS Negligence complaints lodged have increased 49% since 2010 (evidence & here)
64. 35,000+ NHS Staff have been axed (evidence)
65. 5,000 Firefighters have been axed (evidence)
66. Minimum Wage rises have been below inflation every year of Tory rule (evidence)
67. University Applications fell by 6% in Jan 2013 (here)
68. 20 Treatments are no longer free on the NHS in parts of England (evidence)
69. 10 Prisons have been axed & 4 more are to close (evidence & here)
70. 4 Profit Making Prisons have been opened (evidence)
71. The Tax Gap has grown by £3bn to £35bn in the last year alone [evasion/avoidance] (evidence)
72. 6% of Prison Cells have been cut in 1 year (evidence)
73. £829m cut from the Children's & Families Budget (evidence)
74. The percentage of A-Level Students getting A/A* has fallen 3% since 2010 (here)
75. Food Prices are up 19% under the Tories (evidence)
76. 11,000 Fat Cat NHS Bosses given a 13% pay hike while nurses pay frozen (evidence)
77. At least a third of Ambulance Stations have been axed since 2010 (evidence)
78. NHS GP Funding cut by £400 million (evidence)
79. NHS Funding For Cancer, Stroke & Heart Patients cut by 12-26% (evidence)
80. A&Es waiting times at their worst for 8+ years (here)
81. Michael Gove overspent £1bn on Free Schools & Academies at State Schools expense (evidence)
82. NHS Direct was axed and replaced by a botched and fragmented NHS111 (evidence)
83. NHS Patient Satisfaction went from record high under Labour to record low under Tories (evidence)

 

[Guest77]

Longer list above, backed with evidence, enjoy.

 

[Octopus]

blah, blah, blah.

If you think ANTHING will be different under Millipede / Clegg / Ferage / Strugeon you are going to be dissappointed.

Like this weeks budget - Ed Balls says he won't do anything different.... and its all gone very quiet

 

[plugsandsparks]

Longer list above, backed with evidence, enjoy.

Have you been living on the moon for 8 years.. lol. That's what austerity looks like. Get used to it , more to come, sooner we get it out of the way the better.

 

[Guest77]

blah, blah, blah.

If you think ANTHING will be different under Millipede / Clegg / Ferage / Strugeon you are going to be dissappointed.

Like this weeks budget - Ed Balls says he won't do anything different.... and its all gone very quiet

Just pointing out to the Tories here things are not as great as they think clive, I agree all politicians are numpties as you keep letting us know, I do believe ed milliband would be better for the poor in the country than cameron but he will also mess everything up, the parties are very similar and all heading one way at the moment, south.

 

[Guest77]

Have you been living on the moon for 8 years.. lol. That's what austerity looks like. Get used to it , more to come, sooner we get it out of the way the better.

we had it from 1979-1997, and 2007- to date, I am well aware what it is you barriban buffoon :biggrin:

 

[Guest77]

But they did knock 1p off a pint.

and 2% off cider, don't forget that lol.

 

[andyb]

and 2% off cider, don't forget that lol.

Don't drink cider, two pints of that and you end up voting Tory.

 

[plugsandsparks]

we had it from 1979-1997, and 2007- to date, I am well aware what it is you barriban buffoon :biggrin:

Ha, anyway for the avoidance of doubt - Austerity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - oh and whats LD and Labour answer, "austerity lite" - lol

 

[Guest77]

Ha, anyway for the avoidance of doubt - Austerity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - oh and whats LD and Labour answer, "austerity lite" - lol

They will end it and we will go around the circle again lol, nothing changes in this country except it is growing so much we may sink soon.

 

[Des 56]

I am not going to get myself embroiled in any political argument because the thread has very staunch conservative diehards, they have fed well on the propaganda that causes these workers to bestow such gratitude on the powerful and the wealthy who feed them well

There has been and still is much harping on about the deficit,whether labour or the Tories caused it or who is the better in order to reduce that deficit

I am no economist by a very long stretch of the imagination,however,one thing I am aware of is that a national deficit is a natural and healthy means of running any government,be they Tory or Labour,its in order to plan for future infrastructure and overall other spending plans

All western capitalist economies have and absolutely must have borrowing ,that is the natural product of a capitalist system
Borrowing and the national debt is mostly a calculation of future investment plans in whatever the existing government intend for future years

It can be reduced like these last few years or increased if they so wish,any borrowing is not a problem,it is the balance between projected spending and actual spending that has to be balanced and that is long term whoever takes the reigns

 

[plugsandsparks]

I am not going to get myself embroiled in any political argument because the thread has very staunch conservative diehards, they have fed well on the propaganda that causes these workers to bestow such gratitude on the powerful and the wealthy who feed them well

There has been and still is much harping on about the deficit,whether labour or the Tories caused it or who is the better in order to reduce that deficit

I am no economist by a very long stretch of the imagination,however,one thing I am aware of is that a national deficit is a natural and healthy means of running any government,be they Tory or Labour,its in order to plan for future infrastructure and overall other spending plans

All western capitalist economies have and absolutely must have borrowing ,that is the natural product of a capitalist system
Borrowing and the national debt is mostly a calculation of future investment plans in whatever the existing government intend for future years

It can be reduced like these last few years or increased if they so wish,any borrowing is not a problem,it is the balance between projected spending and actual spending that has to be balanced and that is long term whoever takes the reigns

Fair enough but as always there is a limit to how much borrowing is good and what is bad. The UK appears to react only when banks and the like don't want to lend to us unless the interest rate is punitive, I am quite staggered at the size of our interest payments which is still rising. Annual cost is around 8% of government income. TBH the larger it gets the less politics really means anything because there is less and less options for each government to decide on our behalf what to spend the remaining 92% on as so much is locked in stone.

 

[Diddy]

exhibit 3 - I am better off and so are my customers, so easy for me to decide what to do in May.

Can we have evidence of that please or is it true because the government tell you it is ? Ask yourself a simple straight forward question. What percentage of your wages go on basics ? Basics being food, heat, shelter. Now compare that percentage to what it was in 2010.....I am hoping we are comparing like for like by the way - IE an electrician in 2010 to an electrician in 2015 - If you find the percentage lower today then you sir are one of the few. If your customers can do the same equation and come up with the same answer that they are now paying less as a percentage of their wages for the basics then you sir have stumbled across the perfect customer base as the average person has seen his/her living standards fall since 2010.

 

[Octopus]

Can we have evidence of that please or is it true because the Political Parties tell you it is ? Ask yourself a simple straight forward question. What percentage of your wages go on basics ? Basics being food, heat, shelter. Now compare that percentage to what it was in 2010.....I am hoping we are comparing like for like by the way - IE an electrician in 2010 to an electrician in 2015 - If you find the percentage lower today then you sir are one of the few. If your customers can do the same equation and come up with the same answer that they are now paying less as a percentage of their wages for the basics then you sir have stumbled across the perfect customer base as the average person has seen his/her living standards fall since 2010.

I've edited that for you. They are all the same..... except you have the Loch Ness Monster in charge!

 

[Diddy]

I've edited that for you. They are all the same..... except you have the Loch Ness Monster in charge!

Fair enough I can live with that. The second part is unfair though as she was on the news just the other evening saying how some of the comments from opponents and media are quite hurtful and upsetting for her personally.....poor wee sole - BTW I support SNP and Nicola but even I had to laugh at that. You don't get to the top of the tree by being a shrinking violet lol.

 

[Octopus]

Fair enough I can live with that. The second part is unfair though as she was on the news just the other evening saying how some of the comments from opponents and media are quite hurtful and upsetting for her personally.....poor wee sole - BTW I support SNP and Nicola but even I had to laugh at that. You don't get to the top of the tree by being a shrinking violet lol.

I've heard her being interviewed by the Guardian recently.

The SNP election manifesto is vote SNP, to keep the Tories out - shouldn't she be saying vote Labour to keep the Tories out?

What it actually means is vote SNP and then we can hold Labour to ransome to get another Independence poll!

 

[Diddy]

I've heard her being interviewed by the Guardian recently.

The SNP election manifesto is vote SNP, to keep the Tories out - shouldn't she be saying vote Labour to keep the Tories out?

What it actually means is vote SNP and then we can hold Labour to ransom to get another Independence poll!

Basically they are more left than labour currently and that suits me. Maybe her guardian interview was rubbish...never saw it myself. But they do offer an alternative up here and one I am happy to vote for...On policies not on some keep labour/Tories out rubbish. The Scottish labour party up here that really IS their manifesto - Vote SNP get Tories.....that is it no policies to speak of - it is a crying shame to see them reduced to a pathetic rabble up here.
The SNP is what it is. We can vote for them for an eternity and still Salmond and Sturgeon may never get their dream of independence - but the Scottish electorate can tag along for the ride on the back of some decent vote winning policies.
Even living in England you all know what the SNP have done for Scotland - Free prescriptions, Nobody pays bedroom tax/subsidy, They have invested in infrastructure which has created jobs and finally tuition fees.....which is the only freebie I would personally like to see gone...as I think England has actually got that right.

 

[Octopus]

Basically they are more left than labour currently and that suits me. Maybe her guardian interview was rubbish...never saw it myself. But they do offer an alternative up here and one I am happy to vote for...On policies not on some keep labour/Tories out rubbish. The Scottish labour party up here that really IS their manifesto - Vote SNP get Tories.....that is it no policies to speak of - it is a crying shame to see them reduced to a pathetic rabble up here.
The SNP is what it is. We can vote for them for an eternity and still Salmond and Sturgeon may never get their dream of independence - but the Scottish electorate can tag along for the ride on the back of some decent vote winning policies.
Even living in England you all know what the SNP have done for Scotland - Free prescriptions, Nobody pays bedroom tax/subsidy, They have invested in infrastructure which has created jobs and finally tuition fees.....which is the only freebie I would personally like to see gone...as I think England has actually got that right.

If England had the spending power head that Scotland had we would have the same benefits.

 

[Diddy]

If England had the spending power head that Scotland had we would have the same benefits.

The trouble with the old spending per head in England is that London skews the numbers by a lot.
London has £9866 per head as opposed to the south east which has a shameful £7756. But I believe spending as relative to several factors. Depressed areas is one, Vote buying is another. Now I know an area 20 miles from me gets tons more spent on it than my own area.....But the thing is the area I am talking about is/was a ghetto (or it would be in the states). It takes many years of extra public spending to get these areas up to standard.
One of the worst areas for public spending up here is Aberdeen....which is where tons of the cash coming into the economy comes from, Seems a bit perverse.
But again why should the SNP not have policies that take advantage of what cash is there and bribe the voters lol. Why dont Scottish labour or Scottish Tories for that matter find innovative ways to spend the "allowance" ? It's not as if SNP get any more than the other parties have to work with.
By the way everything is not rosey and sunny up here even with the extra £ per head. There is still areas with huge problems and people have been waiting 4+ hours in A+E.....it is not confined to down south.
I still think both the big two parties are missing a trick with HS2....I really think that cash could be much better spent improving normal everyday people lives down there. HS2 with benefit the few in the long run.

 

[Octopus]

The trouble with the old spending per head in England is that London skews the numbers by a lot.
London has £9866 per head as opposed to the south east which has a shameful £7756. But I believe spending as relative to several factors. Depressed areas is one, Vote buying is another. Now I know an area 20 miles from me gets tons more spent on it than my own area.....But the thing is the area I am talking about is/was a ghetto (or it would be in the states). It takes many years of extra public spending to get these areas up to standard.
One of the worst areas for public spending up here is Aberdeen....which is where tons of the cash coming into the economy comes from, Seems a bit perverse.
But again why should the SNP not have policies that take advantage of what cash is there and bribe the voters lol. Why dont Scottish labour or Scottish Tories for that matter find innovative ways to spend the "allowance" ? It's not as if SNP get any more than the other parties have to work with.
By the way everything is not rosey and sunny up here even with the extra £ per head. There is still areas with huge problems and people have been waiting 4+ hours in A+E.....it is not confined to down south.
I still think both the big two parties are missing a trick with HS2....I really think that cash could be much better spent improving normal everyday people lives down there. HS2 with benefit the few in the long run.

So what, if A & E is busy and I've sprained my ankle and theres a serious incident on the M3, I would expect to wait. Triage always means the most serious get seen first.

The 4 hour waiting "gimmic" is a seriously bad measure, because NOBODY who needs urgent attention, and enters A&E will always get priority.

Hospitals get round the 4 hour rule by making ambulances "wait" outside, then the ambulance service get slated for missing their times......

 

[plugsandsparks]

Can we have evidence of that please or is it true because the government tell you it is ? Ask yourself a simple straight forward question. What percentage of your wages go on basics ? Basics being food, heat, shelter. Now compare that percentage to what it was in 2010.....I am hoping we are comparing like for like by the way - IE an electrician in 2010 to an electrician in 2015 - If you find the percentage lower today then you sir are one of the few. If your customers can do the same equation and come up with the same answer that they are now paying less as a percentage of their wages for the basics then you sir have stumbled across the perfect customer base as the average person has seen his/her living standards fall since 2010.

No - sorry - you will just have to take me at my word.

 

[Guest77]

Take a Tory at his word? hmm, let me ponder that for a while :biggrin:

 

[Octopus]

Take a Tory at his word? hmm, let me ponder that for a while :biggrin:

Take ANY politician at their word, I don't need to ponder that!

 

[plugsandsparks]

"If you are not a socialist at 20, you have no heart, if you are not a conservative at 40, you have no head"

"The problem with socialism is that you run out of other peoples money to spend"

Copyright - Plugs and Sparks - 2015

 

[Guest77]

"If you are not a socialist at 20, you have no heart, if you are not a conservative at 40, you have no head"

"The problem with socialism is that you run out of other peoples money to spend"

Copyright - Plugs and Sparks - 2015

I disagree, it should read if you are not a conservative at 40 then you are not one of the 1% who are looked after, you are one of the 99% who are considered cannon fodder and scroungers.

 

[Diddy]

"If you are not a socialist at 20, you have no heart, if you are not a conservative at 40, you have no head"

"The problem with socialism is that you run out of other peoples money to spend"

Copyright - Plugs and Sparks - 2015

I have seen a set of statistics that prove that if you are not in the top 5% of earners and you vote conservative that statistically you are more likely to be a person of low intellect who struggles with everyday life. I will show you the data when you show me your data regarding the fact that you and your customers are better off.....or maybe i just smell political bs ????
By all means support whatever party you want...or whatever party your dad/grandad/best mate down the pub tells you too.....Just be open about it, don't try to make up bs about my party have done this that or the other...we are all better off ect. People in general are not stupid, we actually don't need a weatherman to tell us it's bloody raining outside. Just admit you are convinced by the conservative vision and nothing will change that....it would make more sense lol.

 

[Octopus]

I have seen a set of statistics that prove that if you are not in the top 5% of earners and you vote conservative that statistically you are more likely to be a person of low intellect who struggles with everyday life. I will show you the data when you show me your data regarding the fact that you and your customers are better off.....or maybe i just smell political bs ????
By all means support whatever party you want...or whatever party your dad/grandad/best mate down the pub tells you too.....Just be open about it, don't try to make up bs about my party have done this that or the other...we are all better off ect. People in general are not stupid, we actually don't need a weatherman to tell us it's bloody raining outside. Just admit you are convinced by the conservative vision and nothing will change that....it would make more sense lol.

what utter tosh

 

[Diddy]

what utter tosh

Did you actually read the very next line ? Did you think about the context in the way I replied directly to plug ? I will give you a hand here Murdoch -

No - sorry - you will just have to take me at my word.

 

[Octopus]

Did you actually read the very next line ? Did you think about the context in the way I replied directly to plug ? I will give you a hand here Murdoch -

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time but there is so much "mis information" written on the web somebody has to do their bit and correct them!

 

[Diddy]

If England had the spending power head that Scotland had we would have the same benefits.

Have thought some more about this statement - The english parties would cut tax long before restoring any type of public service, that is essentially the big difference in my opinion.

 

[andyb]

"The problem with socialism is that you run out of other peoples money to spend"

Copyright - Plugs and Sparks - 2015

I think a certain ex Prim Minister from Finchley might claim copyright for that quote.

Capitalists soon discovered 'socialism' when the banking sector crashed in 2008 though.
Happy to take our money.

 

[Octopus]

Have thought some more about this statement - The english parties would cut tax long before restoring any type of public service, that is essentially the big difference in my opinion.

You are over looking the fact that courtsey of the Barnett formula, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have more to spend per head than England.

I'm not sure if any of the Political parties have the bxlls to scrap the Barnet formula - but they should, as it was introduced in 1978 as a temporary measure!

 

[Guest77]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time but there is so much "mis information" written on the web somebody has to do their bit and correct them!

Yes and you write a lot of it Clive.