Electrical compliance in first world is not as good as the third world

[The Ghost]

Oh and by the way, it is not the land of milk and honey here. I think per thousand head of population we have more murders in London now than south africa and as to children in poverty and being raped not only here in England but many other european countries I think it is safe to say south Africa does not hold a monopoly on human tragedy. It is fairly endemic throughout the world very sadly.

 

[Andy78]

Surely this is why the Niceic Approved contractor is a good thing, you know by using one that they have the correct qualifications, they are assessed once a year, have relevant insurances, use proper test equipment etc etc.
It's got to be a lot safer than using someone without the accreditation surely and is a form of license.

Haha the biggest scamming cowboys round here are NICEIC AC. Unfortunately the membership of any scheme is no longer any guarantee of quality or competence. I will agree that at one time the approved status within the NICEIC scheme did mean something, but those days are long gone.

 

[Starjack]

Haha the biggest scamming cowboys round here are NICEIC AC. Unfortunately the membership of any scheme is no longer any guarantee of quality or competence. I will agree that at one time the approved status within the NICEIC scheme did mean something, but those days are long gone.

But putting their motives aside, surely the fact that you need several things to join and become A.c. approved.
Level 3 nvq etc
Insurance
Certification
Several installs to show
Complaints procedure etc
Proves you're trying to do things right.

I don't know whether other people just have bad assessors but ours go through everything thoroughly and certainly earn their wage.
My point is any Tom , dick or Harry can walk into an wholesaler and buy electrical materials and go and wire up whatever they like, at least if you had to produce proof you are an AC contractor it could cut a lot of the cowboys out and the customer would know you are qualified with relevant cover etc etc etc.

 

[Pete999]

None taken Pete, there's nothing you can say to offend me

You sure about that????????????

 

[Rpa07]

Customers don’t give a monkeys about all that faff, they want their electrics working, safe and neat! I said in another thread, if you can’t supply all three you won’t survive and make a living.

 

[static zap]

................ if you had to produce proof you are an AC contractor it could cut a lot of the cowboys out and the customer would know you are qualified with relevant cover etc etc etc.

I don't think it would be long before an industry of "Counterfeit parts" would pop up ..and be more sub-standard than the stuff from the sheds !
..Wrong materials used = more fires..
Not sure I want be checking for holograms on parts.

 

[Andy78]

But putting their motives aside, surely the fact that you need several things to join and become A.c. approved.
Level 3 nvq etc
Insurance
Certification
Several installs to show
Complaints procedure etc
Proves you're trying to do things right.

I don't know whether other people just have bad assessors but ours go through everything thoroughly and certainly earn their wage.
My point is any Tom , dick or Harry can walk into an wholesaler and buy electrical materials and go and wire up whatever they like, at least if you had to produce proof you are an AC contractor it could cut a lot of the cowboys out and the customer would know you are qualified with relevant cover etc etc etc.

I think my point was that being accredited to NICEIC AC or any other scheme is no guarantee that a contractor is any better than any other, and similarly not being registered is no proof either way of competence, incompetence or professionalism or the lack of.

Which leaves the supposed aim of the schemes null and void.

 

[Starjack]

I think my point was that being accredited to NICEIC AC or any other scheme is no guarantee that a contractor is any better than any other, and similarly not being registered is no proof either way of competence, incompetence or professionalism or the lack of.

Which leaves the supposed aim of the schemes null and void.

Let me put it another way, and the following is 100% the truth.
All of my customers are large companies and are either Industrial or commercial.
My Biggest customer last year had a Nett profit of 85 million, now I'm not trying to be Billy big .......... but I can guarantee that without the Niceic Approved accreditation, large insurance coverage, proof of qualifications , impressive portfolio etc etc then all the guys who don't have the Above and all the boil in the bag, dot to dot short course guys wouldnt even get passed the security house.

 

[Andy78]

Let me put it another way, and the following is 100% the truth.
All of my customers are large companies and are either Industrial or commercial.
My Biggest customer last year had a Nett profit of 85 million, now I'm not trying to be Billy big .......... but I can guarantee that without the Niceic Approved accreditation, large insurance coverage, proof of qualifications , impressive portfolio etc etc then all the guys who don't have the Above and all the boil in the bag, dot to dot short course guys wouldnt even get passed the security house.

That's not putting it another way, that's a different point entirely. That point is made from a financial viewpoint. I was talking purely about competence and validity. We are clearly not on the same page here.

If large companies choose to select contractors on the basis of a badge rather than do their own due diligence that is up to them. I was just asserting that method is no guarantee of ending up with the best company, just the companies that have ticked the right boxes.

You must understand I'm not being personal here but just talking about schemes in general, so there's no need to be defensive.

 

[DPG]

Spot on Andy.

 

[Starjack]

That's not putting it another way, that's a different point entirely. That point is made from a financial viewpoint. I was talking purely about competence and validity. We are clearly not on the same page here.

If large companies choose to select contractors on the basis of a badge rather than do their own due diligence that is up to them. I was just asserting that method is no guarantee of ending up with the best company, just the companies that have ticked the right boxes.

You must understand I'm not being personal here but just talking about schemes in general, so there's no need to be defensive.

So are you trying to tell me that being an Approved contractor is no better than being a short course guy or some prat from the pub chancing his luck, whether you agree that the niceic is any good is irrelevant, the fact is you clearly need the relevant qualifications and experience to pass the assessment every year, something that a domestic installer or short course dumbbell couldn't do.

 

[Starjack]

Just to add the point I was trying to make about large companies was that you can't get through the gate without it.

 

[Andy78]

So are you trying to tell me that being an Approved contractor is no better than being a short course guy or some prat from the pub chancing his luck, whether you agree that the niceic is any good is irrelevant, the fact is you clearly need the relevant qualifications and experience to pass the assessment every year, something that a domestic installer or short course dumbbell couldn't do.

You are clearly having trouble with this one. I'm not making my point again so you're going to have to re-read and try and digest it.

 

[DPG]

Starjack, you are arguing a different point.

 

[Jjc]

None taken Pete, there's nothing you can say to offend me

When I emigrated to S A in1971 there was a strict procedure then before receiving a permanent residence status and a licencing system for sparks was in force .

 

[oracle]

You sure about that????????????

Well, not intentionally !!!!!!

 

[oracle]

When I emigrated to S A in1971 there was a strict procedure then before receiving a permanent residence status and a licencing system for sparks was in force .

It's still the same, even they get prosecuted if they get it wrong

 

[ackbarthestar]

A good system in SA. We have something similar with the Gas industry in the UK, unfortunately the electrical industry has been 'deregulated' which means its open to carpetbaggers. Nothing really wrong with NICEIC, NAPIT, STROMA, ECA, ELECSA, BSI, SELECT. Its the the others that maybe problematic.
As official appenticeships have collapsed in this country there is a need for trained electricians and what appears to be the only way is to fill the market with DIYers and let them learn on the job and struggle through the assessment process offered by the authorizing bodies ........

 

[Blaspark]

I'm a bit incredulous tbh. Is there others with first hand experience of modern SA? It's got a massively high crime rate along with corruption and a stagnating economy.

In this context it's really hard to imagine they maintain such high standards. Plus I've lived/travelled abroad and those countries that seemed dodgy from a distance only became clearly dodgy up close.

Is there some statistics to back this idea that SA is great? For example less fires, dodgy sparks prosecuted, percentage of installations that have proper certification, factory uptime etc

 

[Blaspark]

A couple of more things...

I checked from an unofficial source about the pass marks for exams. It was listed at 50%. Maybe oracle could confirm that and provide an example of some questions so we get an idea of how hard the exam is.

About the arc protection that oracle says is required... How does that work? Is it always required? Afdd's are very expensive and not commonly installed. Also John ward's videos on Afdd's are essential viewing. They seemed a little unreliable.