Advice for a bill/dispute

[Pete999]

It'd be good to hear from a Scottish member (who won't sound anything like a Scouser) about the Scottish requirements for a safety certificate.

How can you say that, he could be a Scottish Scouser, Jeez what a mix that would make.

 

[telectrix]

Same sort of tongue as Scouse is it Tel

nah. there's quite a big difference between " stitch that, jimmy. och aye" and " You'll never walk again, soft lad.".

q.v. Gerry and the Pacemakers.

 

[Pete999]

nah. there's quite a big difference between " stitch that, jimmy. och aye" and " You'll never walk again, soft lad.".

q.v. Gerry and the Pacemakers.

Imagine these 3 with kilts

 

[telectrix]

OY> leave my brothers out of it.

 

[ferg]

It's not required that Building control are notified but an installation certificate should still be issued.

Material costs can also be slightly higher here it's not unusual to find materials cheaper on the internet than I can get them from my wholesaler.

I've fallen foul of trying to install downlights once the PVC panelling has been installed it's a pain in the rear without a drawing or photographs. The more complex the timber work above the more of a pain in the rear it is.

At the end of the day it is arguable that the lad took his time to get it right and the finished job is to a high standard.

As for not getting a quote or estimate... lesson learned.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

Just got an email from SELECT after chasing them up. They refuse to deal with me as it was my partner that phoned the electrician. The electrician knows fine well who I am.

He knows who I am well enough that the bill is addressed to ME!!!!!!



I spoke to Roper Rhodes about the lights on the drawer that have cost hours. They say they can be done in 15-20 minutes. They suggest at worst 1 hour.

No word about a certificate yet. I read this for the guidelines for Scotland.

Which one will new lights and the r.c.d come under?

 

[In_need_of_advice]

Just got an email from SELECT after chasing them up. They refuse to deal with me as it was my partner that phoned the electrician. The electrician knows fine well who I am.

He knows who I am well enough that the bill is addressed to ME!!!!!!



I spoke to Roper Rhodes about the lights on the drawer that have cost hours. They say they can be done in 15-20 minutes. They suggest at worst 1 hour.

No word about a certificate yet. I read this for the guidelines for Scotland.

Which one will new lights and the r.c.d come under?

 

[telectrix]

if it's not a new circuit, then it's a minor works.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

if it's not a new circuit, then it's a minor works.

I know nothing about electrical work.

He's claiming he has completely rewired the lights and it goes back to the r.c.d at the fusebox. Isn't that a new circuit?

 

[ferg]

It's still classed as an alteration to an existing circuit.

Bear in mind that everyone has struggled with kit that has shoddy instructions that should take 'minutes' to assemble.

It should also be taken in to consideration that none of us saw the job only the attending electricians and yourself.

It is not possible to say how long a job should have taken without being there. We are only guessing.

 

[Cadgey123]

Can I ask what did you expect to pay for the job beforehand?

 

[In_need_of_advice]

Can I ask what did you expect to pay for the job beforehand?

I didn't have anything better to go on than other people's experience. I googled and asked a few people and the range wasn't massive. I was ready for somewhere around £350.

Having asked on a couple of very popular forums, and other electricians responding, nobody can grasp how it amounted to £850 and 18 hours.

The issue I've raised is the young guy sent out wasn't capable of doing the work in a timely fashion. That's not just my opinion. The lad stood in front of us and fully admitted it to us. I don't know how the conversations go between him and his dad, but what his dad says is nothing like what happened in my house. He's getting his numbers and facts all twisted as he's either accepting his son's work over our word, or he's covering for him. He is fully relying on his son for his side of the argument.

The dad laid on thick how nice a chap is son his. He was a really nice guy, but I shouldn't be made to feel guilty over this.

They didn't spend 18 hours in my house like originally billed. When tackled twice over this he reduced it to 16.5 hours and claimed an additional 1.5 travel time. This is still incorrect.

The amount of hours the son lost for not being able to hang a mirror on his own, or understand the drawers isn't reflected in the bill. The son admitted to us both jobs lost him hours.

I've posted pictures of the drawers and the wiring inside on page one. You can look and see if you agree with the manufacturer's claims of it can be done in 15-20 minutes.

Also demonstrated on page 1 it looks to be the case the mark up on cetain products is very heavy.

I appreciate the error of not getting a quote was a serious error on our behalf. It shouldn't lead to be taken advantage of.

 

[Pete999]

I didn't have anything better to go on than other people's experience. I googled and asked a few people and the range wasn't massive. I was ready for somewhere around £350.

Having asked on a couple of very popular forums, and other electricians responding, nobody can grasp how it amounted to £850 and 18 hours.

The issue I've raised is the young guy sent out wasn't capable of doing the work in a timely fashion. That's not just my opinion. The lad stood in front of us and fully admitted it to us. I don't know how the conversations go between him and his dad, but what his dad says is nothing like what happened in my house. He's getting his numbers and facts all twisted as he's either accepting his son's work over our word, or he's covering for him. He is fully relying on his son for his side of the argument.

The dad laid on thick how nice a chap is son his. He was a really nice guy, but I shouldn't be made to feel guilty over this.

They didn't spend 18 hours in my house like originally billed. When tackled twice over this he reduced it to 16.5 hours and claimed an additional 1.5 travel time. This is still incorrect.

The amount of hours the son lost for not being able to hang a mirror on his own, or understand the drawers isn't reflected in the bill. The son admitted to us both jobs lost him hours.

I've posted pictures of the drawers and the wiring inside on page one. You can look and see if you agree with the manufacturer's claims of it can be done in 15-20 minutes.

Also demonstrated on page 1 it looks to be the case the mark up on cetain products is very heavy.

I appreciate the error of not getting a quote was a serious error on our behalf. It shouldn't lead to be taken advantage of.

Trading standards is a good place to report him

 

[In_need_of_advice]

I'm not amused with SELECT. Yesterday the excuse was they couldn't deal with me as the contract was with my partner. I then sent photographic proof that the recorded letter and the invoice was addressed to me.

Today things have changed.

I have "nothing in writing with which to back your claim for overpayment or overcharging". Does a bill for £850 not count as proof with documentation with what work was done?

I have nothing in writing but the both of us were in the house and know when the guy came and left. Without any doubt we know what hours he worked. What other possible way could I prove the hours he claimed for was wrong and we were overcharged?

They won't get involved with the conduct of an employee as "it's our word against his". How else is that going to be?

The word of two people won't even be considered against someone else?

"In terms of certification for the job, unfortunately the industry is not regulated by law so there is no legal requirement to issue a certificate."

End of matter as far as SELECT are concerned.


What purpose do SELECT actually serve?

Someone said to me on the back of yesterday's excuse it was a classic fob off. I was to remember that they were a paid body and would defend their customer and not me.

Sounds as if that's exactly the case.

 

[Strima]

For certification, I haven't got my regs book to hand, chapter 63 of BS7671 covers the requirement for certifying an installation and what certificates should be raised. Although BS7671 is non-statutory it is referred to in the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 and can be used to prove non-compliance. So we are regulated by law.

The minimum Select should be doing is acting as an intermediary to resolve this situation. Sounds like they can't be bothered.

 

[Cadgey123]

You should defintely get the completion certs as it is required after doing any job of that scale.

In regards to the money, you are fighting a lost cause. Nothing was agreed before therefor you left yourself wide open.
I personally would take advantage of this situation but know many who would.

 

[telectrix]

it's not so much that OP is disputing the hourly rate charged for. it's the number of hours that were actually billable.

 

[HandySparks]

What purpose do SELECT actually serve?

I suspect that they'll only get involved in the event of an unsafe installation. They won't want to know about contractual stuff.

How many hours do you think the electricians were on site? Do they state in any publication or on their website anything about their rates or charging for travel?

 

[telectrix]

do it the Turkish way. offer £400. he'll come back with £700, blah,blah, blah, then finally settle for £599.99.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

I suspect that they'll only get involved in the event of an unsafe installation. They won't want to know about contractual stuff.

How many hours do you think the electricians were on site? Do they state in any publication or on their website anything about their rates or charging for travel?

14 hours in total. The plumber says they weren't here for 2 hours each on the first visit. I can't contest that too heavily as I wasn't here to see.

The 14 hours still includes the hours the the young lad fully admitted he lost as he couldn't hang the mirror on his own and then again understanding the wiring of the drawers. That also includes lunch breaks, excessive cigarette breaks and Facebook. It is the total time here.

There is zero mention of travel hours on his website. It does mention that they cover areas of the North East of Scotland much further away than us. We are 16 miles away and got charged £27 per day. He is willing to travel to places 60 miles away.

The original bill was for £540+VAT for tradesman labour plus materials. I asked him to break it down and he was clear about 18 hours labour. I then challenged him and told him there wasn't 18 hours spent in my house as we were present to see. It was only then he amended the bill and transferred hours away from tradesman labour and introduced travel expenses.

To me he knows fine well he's been caught out and did this to cheat the numbers.

 

[telectrix]

has he given you an invoice? is his vat number on it.? can you check with HMRC if this is valid?

 

[In_need_of_advice]

has he given you an invoice? is his vat number on it.? can you check with HMRC if this is valid?

Yes I've got an invoice.

Someone sent me a link to check if he was VAT registered and all is ok.

 

[stretchyboy]

The way the cable enters the mains board it has made it no longer comply with IP4X. The rcd spur should have been fitted closer to cover the hole or a trunking fitted.
I agree with the advise given so far that a quote would have saved a lot of grief. Certificate for the works is essential and the job isn't complete without this, so it would be interesting in court.

 

[EWP]

You need to stop talking to people who have not seen the job, who were not there and agree on a price with the Electrician. Go to court and that is all that will happen with additional time and costs.

It is impossible for anyone on here to give you an accurate quote for the work as they were not there.

We all know fitting something someone else has bought for the first time can be a nightmare.

I must say the finish looks really quite good.

Have a good day and next time get a quote.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

The way the cable enters the mains board it has made it no longer comply with IP4X. The rcd spur should have been fitted closer to cover the hole or a trunking fitted.
I agree with the advise given so far that a quote would have saved a lot of grief. Certificate for the works is essential and the job isn't complete without this, so it would be interesting in court.

Why does the cable through the fuse box make a difference?

That's a few guys on here been clear that a certificate is required. Why are SELECT telling me differently? SELECT haven't seen any pictures. I can only assume the electrician told them what work had been carried out.

The dad hasn't seen the finished article either.

If you haven't read the thread I am in Scotland.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

You need to stop talking to people who have not seen the job, who were not there and agree on a price with the Electrician. Go to court and that is all that will happen with additional time and costs.

It is impossible for anyone on here to give you an accurate quote for the work as they were not there.

We all know fitting something someone else has bought for the first time can be a nightmare.

I must say the finish looks really quite good.

Have a good day and next time get a quote.

I don't intend to go to court. I'm just seeking to find a resolution at a fair price.

I'm also needing to make sure it's legal and the correct certificate issue if required.

I've listed the work that was done and I've printed the electrician's own bill for his version of the work. I've posted pictures of the work too. You haven't seen it in person, but how much extra work can there be you haven't seen? How can the cost of my work be so far away from what everything else thinks?

It's two bedroom house and the fusebox almost straight down from the bathroom.

 

[Octopus]

The way the cable enters the mains board it has made it no longer comply with IP4X. .

How closely have you looked at the photo? Not sure I agree with you..

 

[Pete999]

How closely have you looked at the photo? Not sure I agree with you..

I agree Murdoch, the cable entry is a bit rough, but don't think it compromises the IP rating, of course that's from a photograph maybe different in reality,

 

[Kyle Electrical]

It'd be good to hear from a Scottish member (who won't sound anything like a Scouser) about the Scottish requirements for a safety certificate.

As a Select member he must issue at least a "Minor Works Certificate" although fitting the RCD spur at the board could be deemed a new circuit in which case an "Electrical Installation Certificate" would be required.
Building control would only have an input if the bathroom alterations were subject to planning permission/building warrant in which case a "Scottish Building Standards Certificate" would be required.
You could contact Select but they are not really interested in financial disputes. If you feel the work is not up to standard you could ask Select to carry out an inspection.(free if they agree with you but chargeable if they find in the contractors favour). From the photographs i have seen the workmanship looks OK some labels missing from board is all I can see wrong.
I would agree with most that it is expensive, in Glasgow I would be £300-350 (including labour no more than 2 hours first visit and 5 hours to fit out and test.)

 

[EWP]

£30 an hour is cheap.

The VAT is not down to the Electrician.

You are asking a bunch of people who were not there to justify you not paying a bill for work they did not do.

They fitted 5 lamps / assembled fitted an unfamiliar lit mirror / fixed your landing light / fitted a new RCD circuit across three visits to your site.

Without seeing the job, I would have quoted £50 a lamp / £100 for the mirror / £50 for the landing / £100 for the RCD and testing / plus parts all plus VAT.

With the mark up on the parts that is around £600+VAT.

He is hardly ripping you off IMHO with the three site visits.

The ones saying they will do for £300 need to come work for me as I could keep them very busy and make a nice profit to boot.

 

[Cadgey123]

One of my pet hates is people who argue on price.
Sorry just gets on my nerves. If I do a quote the price is the price. I am not a rip off merchant.

If you didn’t ask for a price you are as to blame for this situation in my opinion. Thread is dragging now....

 

[Pete999]

As a Select member he must issue at least a "Minor Works Certificate" although fitting the RCD spur at the board could be deemed a new circuit in which case an "Electrical Installation Certificate" would be required.
Building control would only have an input if the bathroom alterations were subject to planning permission/building warrant in which case a "Scottish Building Standards Certificate" would be required.
You could contact Select but they are not really interested in financial disputes. If you feel the work is not up to standard you could ask Select to carry out an inspection.(free if they agree with you but chargeable if they find in the contractors favour). From the photographs i have seen the workmanship looks OK some labels missing from board is all I can see wrong.
I would agree with most that it is expensive, in Glasgow I would be £300-350 (including labour no more than 2 hours first visit and 5 hours to fit out and test.)

If it's a new circuit, then it will require an EIC however small and insignificant the circuit is, the regulations are quite specific on this issue.

 

[123]

I don't think a new circuit has been added here, just the Upstairs Lighting Circuit changed to be RCD Protected via an RCD Spur.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

One of my pet hates is people who argue on price.
Sorry just gets on my nerves. If I do a quote the price is the price. I am not a rip off merchant.

If you didn’t ask for a price you are as to blame for this situation in my opinion. Thread is dragging now....

You've made your opinion clear a couple of times. I understand your point and fully accept it.

I don't agree with that just because I didn't ask for a quote that gives the electrician the right to overcharge me.

You've twice said you wouldn't take advantage of the situation and wouldn't rip people off in the circumstances, yet you're defending someone who has.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

The VAT is not down to the Electrician.

You are asking a bunch of people who were not there to justify you not paying a bill for work they did not do.

They fitted 5 lamps / assembled fitted an unfamiliar lit mirror / fixed your landing light / fitted a new RCD circuit across three visits to your site.

He is hardly ripping you off IMHO with the three site visits.

.

The first site visit was made on the day of the first phone call. They were in the area and had a little time to fill that day and wanted to pop in.

Fixing the landing light was reaching up and twisting it back into place. The young guy had the ladders out and was working feet away for access to the loft.

It should never have taken 3 visits. On the second visit the young lad admitted he lost hours as he couldn't lift and fit the mirror on his own. He also admitted that he lost hours on the drawer as he didn't understand them. The third visit the drawers were running in no time at all.

 

[EWP]

Now you're arguing with me?

I am seeing a trend here tbh.

 

[In_need_of_advice]

Now you're arguing with me?

I am seeing a trend here tbh.

Not at all. I was only responding to your post to highlight the situation.

Reading the electrician's description it sounds as if repairing the landing light was a significant job. I'm just clarifying what happened.

It's really rare for me to get involved in a dispute. All other tradesmen had their bills settled immediately.

 

[EWP]

Well, I am sorry you have been unlucky this time.

It is never nice to get into a dispute.

Find a common ground and settle quickly, would be my best advice.

 

[123]

IMO the only sensible way to solve this is for you and the electrical contractor to spend time going through it together, and come to an agreement.

A lesson learned on your part to ask for a quote beforehand, and a lesson learned on his to give a quote beforehand.

Hopefully this comes to a reasonable conclusion with both parties satisfied with the outcome.

 

[Kyle Electrical]

If it's a new circuit, then it will require an EIC however small and insignificant the circuit is, the regulations are quite specific on this issue.

That’s what I said!!!!