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jonnychez

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Apologies for the cheeky first post but I'm getting desperate.

Basically I had and extension added to my house. To all intents and purposes it was finished. Unfortunately my builder went bust before I got my Part P cert from him. I have managed to contact him and he has informed me that the electrician says he can't supply one!

To cut a long story short I have contacted various electricians with a view to paying them to come and inspect the work and certify it if it meets with their approval. unfortunately all I get is sympathy. They say they cannot give a Part P certificate for somebody elses work as they are in breach of BS7671 and don't want to get binned by the NICEIC. I have spoken to the local authority and they basically told me to just get somebody to check it and allocate a certificate, wich obviously none of the electricians will do.

I've phoned the NICEIC and they have effectively told me that I will have to rip all the electrics out and get a Part P electrician to re-do the work.

I just cannot understand how a qualified electician is not allowed to come out and fully inspect anothers work and approve it. What's the point in PAT testing and periodic testing certificates if this is the case? I have even had a qualified electrician, not Part P (old family friend), come and inspect the work and he said it's fine so I know it's not a botch job.

All comments are appreciated, except the one's that tell me what a retard I am (I already know).
 
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S

Spudmiester

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  • #2
Get someone round who is not in the NIC. There are a few other domestic installer organisations such as ELCSA or NAPIT.

I have a mate who has done all this part p nonsense (I have not) and he signs my jobs off. He is not even a spark, infact he is technically inept,but he can pass exams so I guess that makes him an electrician.

As for ripping it all out and starting again, utter boll***s. The NIC seem to be getting too big for their boots methinks !
 
K

Kensprint

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
Try the following:

1 Pay your money to building control and get them to inspect it.

2 Next time employ a builder who is not on his uppers.

3 Make sure the builder uses a suitably qualified electrician.

NIC Elecsa and Napit all prevent their Part P registered electricians from signing off on part P work not carried out by themselves.

It is not difficult for any qualified sparky who want to do domestic work to take the part P course. The cost of the course is only about 1.5 to 2 day jobs.
 
J

jonnychez

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  • #4
Thanks for the advise guys.

Building control don't seem to be bothered. They even told me that legally I don't even need to get my property signed off but it will affect resale value.

The builder was recommended by the architect I used and this is his only failing. To be fair he finished 99.9% of the work before he 'left'.

I was here when the electrician did the wiring and he told me his son had his own company and he would be certifing it. Problem is electrician is not talking to builder (I assume he hasn't been paid) and I'm a bit stuffed.

I'll give building regs a call again on Monday and see what they have to say.

The funny thing is I've actually been contemplating becoming a qualified electrician just to get the bloody thing signed off myself! That's how I found this forum :).
 
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PAUL M

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  • #5
your situation is a common one and im afraid not one i have much sympathy for,you should have employed the services of a part p spark or checked that the spark your builder employed was,no spark in their right mind would pass off another sparks work under the part p scheme :rolleyes:the penalty is a fine of £5000 if caught and your local building control should not be advocating another spark passing the job off ,it looks like you will have to pay your building control to get it passed off:eek: have fun.;)
 
C

Carter

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  • #6
I've phoned the NICEIC and they have effectively told me that I will have to rip all the electrics out and get a Part P electrician to re-do the work.

I just cannot understand how a qualified electician is not allowed to come out and fully inspect anothers work and approve it. What's the point in PAT testing and periodic testing certificates if this is the case? I have even had a qualified electrician, not Part P (old family friend), come and inspect the work and he said it's fine so I know it's not a botch job.
That installation (certed or not) is YOUR property!!! So now the NICEIC believe they own YOUR property and whats more think they have the right to tell you WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR OWN PROPERTY????

This f*cking nonesense has gone far enough in my view. The cheek of these [email protected]@rds, who the hell do they think they are?

Just get Bldg Ctrl to do it and be done with it. Then start ripping lumps out of NICEIC for that comment. I see no reason why another competent electrician cannot inspect, test and certify it. The same parameters apply no matter what sodding logo appears on top of the cert.
 
J

jonnychez

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
your situation is a common one and im afraid not one i have much sympathy for,you should have employed the services of a part p spark or checked that the spark your builder employed was,no spark in their right mind would pass off another sparks work under the part p scheme :rolleyes:the penalty is a fine of £5000 if caught and your local building control should not be advocating another spark passing the job off ,it looks like you will have to pay your building control to get it passed off:eek: have fun.;)
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. When I was awareded planning permission the Part P had just come in to effect (In the January I think). The builder I employed hired the electrician himself, I wasn't aware of what I had to do I just assumed that the building inspectors would only pass certain phases of the job if everything was in order, as this was the case and no questions were asked I didn't know anything was wrong until they asked for the certificate at the end.

I don't mind paying to get it certified or for any work that may be required, I just can't seem to be able to get anyone to do it.

Does building control have to do it, or can they just tell me to like it or lump it?

I see no reason why another competent electrician cannot inspect, test and certify it. The same parameters apply no matter what sodding logo appears on top of the cert.
Obviously I'm biased but I also cannot see why a Part P qualified sparky cannot be allowed to inspect and certify somebody elses work.
 
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E

ElectricMick

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
This is where the part "P" becomes a bit of a nonsense. Depending where you are, and your building control officers will depend on your way out of this. Where I work (South West) my LABC is very good. You should be able to get any part p qualified electrician to certify and sign it off (if its good enough) and then pay the LABC to send a building inspector round to agree that the work is part p complient. The electrician does not need to belong to the NIC/ELECSA etc. He just needs to be qualified. There is always too much interpretation/misinterpretation of the regs. The electrical ones are difficult enough without all the statutory instruments that come with the building regs. If I was you I would get a spark to speak to the LABC and find out exectly what they will accept, and from who. Hope this helps
 
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PAUL M

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
When I was awareded planning permission the Part P had just come in to effect (In the January I think)
what year.part p is two years old roughly.tell your builder he has got to pay to have it passed off see what he says after all he instructed the spark did he not:rolleyes:

That installation (certed or not) is YOUR property!!! So now the NICEIC believe they own YOUR property and whats more think they have the right to tell you WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR OWN PROPERTY????

This f*cking nonesense has gone far enough in my view. The cheek of these [email protected]@rds, who the hell do they think they are?

Just get Bldg Ctrl to do it and be done with it. Then start ripping lumps out of NICEIC for that comment. I see no reason why another competent electrician cannot inspect, test and certify it. The same parameters apply no matter what sodding logo appears on top of the cert.
like it or not carter part p is in force and is there to protect the public from cowboys is it not:)
 
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wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
In actual fact part p is in force to create jobs for jobsworths, it does not stop cowboys. Your house is even today in crazy Britain your property.

Some sparks seem to think they are part of some scientific phonmena that is out of scope of anyone but their own click. In actual fact it is not illegal to do as you want.

Even if a diy electrician, you can rewire your own house, it is not illegal. You can if you want insist the council inspect, and pass judgement. Pass-Fail. That is entirely up to you.

Some 'dodgy' sparks will tell you otherwise, but I'm telling you they are bull****ting.

Having said that, before I would put my name to anything others had done I would inspect very carefully. With notes, not installed. But tested ok.

Thats all you need. In effect a spark could make the worst job ever, yet test results show ok...pass. It is bull****. So I could rewire your house as a part p spark, make a complete **** of it. And pass it, cos I mark my own 'quiz' results.

This country is ****ing mad
 
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PAUL M

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
we dont make the rules wattsup thats up to a higher class of bullsh'tter:) but unfortunately we have to abide by them,none of us are happy with constraints being placed on us but until the higher level bullsh;tters decide to change things we are stuck with them:eek: long live the revolution:rolleyes:
 
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wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Ah, paul m that's where you don't see the rules, it is not illegal to rewire a house, part p or not.

They guys whom make the rules like to keep them 'discrete'. Some of the converted nic and the like also like to keep legality vague.

It is not illegal to wire your own home. Hey it is not difficult to rewire a house. The nic are not in it for 'good workmanship' you know and i know why they are in it.

It is corrupt, if you think it's worth a revolution, sobeit.
 
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PAUL M

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
[quote= The nic are not in it for 'good workmanship' you know and i know why they are in it.

;)££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££;)
 
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wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #14
Exxxxxxxxxxxaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacccccccccccccctlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Some nic members could not wire a christmas tree, and I ain't kidding

If you have a spare £1000 to spare I will guarantee membership, no problem.
 
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PAUL M

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
allready a member mate and its cost me more than a grand to date.
 
E

EasyFox

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  • #16
Where are you located Jonnychez?
Only asking because I have been asked to undertake a periodic (pir) for a mate of a mate in Hampshire, the bloke is in the same situation as you & LBC have agreed to accept a periodic but has to be from a part P registered sparks.
 
C

Carter

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
In actual fact part p is in force to create jobs for jobsworths, it does not stop cowboys. Your house is even today in crazy Britain your property.

Some sparks seem to think they are part of some scientific phonmena that is out of scope of anyone but their own click. In actual fact it is not illegal to do as you want.

Even if a diy electrician, you can rewire your own house, it is not illegal. You can if you want insist the council inspect, and pass judgement. Pass-Fail. That is entirely up to you.

Some 'dodgy' sparks will tell you otherwise, but I'm telling you they are bull****ting.

Having said that, before I would put my name to anything others had done I would inspect very carefully. With notes, not installed. But tested ok.

Thats all you need. In effect a spark could make the worst job ever, yet test results show ok...pass. It is bull****. So I could rewire your house as a part p spark, make a complete **** of it. And pass it, cos I mark my own 'quiz' results.

This country is ****ing mad
That's a nice summary of my attitude to Part (with yer money) P. The reduction in Wild West activity will be told by results. I think it has in fact given them a badge of respectability that is not fully deserved.
 
J

jonnychez

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Where are you located Jonnychez?
Only asking because I have been asked to undertake a periodic (pir) for a mate of a mate in Hampshire, the bloke is in the same situation as you & LBC have agreed to accept a periodic but has to be from a part P registered sparks.
South Wales, Caerphilly area. I'll ask building control on Monday if they will accept the same. I found an NIC approved sparky and he suggested that they may accept a Periodic but like so many others he never bothered turning up :).
 
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wattsup

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #19
I have done loads of nic stuff (for others)

My own (none nic) stuff is a better job, 100% of times
 
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Carter

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  • #20
Ah, paul m that's where you don't see the rules, it is not illegal to rewire a house, part p or not.
Quite so though everyone with a vested interest would have Joe Punter believe otherwise. Part of the infantilization process I guess, what is it with the mentality of Vogon Britain. Got a permit for that? can't do anything without a permit, are you licenced to carry that permit? Have you applied for the application form to grant outline provisional permission for the temporary posession of a preliminary licence subject to the payment of the registration fee. Oh spare me ffs!
Didn't we already have laws that can be invoked to prosecute those tradesmen who produce lethal work? Reckless endangerment, manslaughter. Regulate the cowboys by all means but don't expect me to pick up the costs of their incompetence. Part P is a wonk-fest!

It is not illegal to wire your own home. Hey it is not difficult to rewire a house. The nic are not in it for 'good workmanship' you know and i know why they are in it.
No it isn't difficult at all for a competent DIYer and there are some who really shouldn't be divving about with tools let alone with electrics, even worse there are those dimwitted plums of whom you think "how does this idiot make it through the day unaided??" At the risk of overextension of the pontl Darwin had an answer for that, he realised that nature whittled out the dumbest by ensuring that there are plenty of options by which they can exit the world and I'm heartily sick of having to have my life affected by and in effect dictated by the desire to save people from themselves.

It is corrupt, if you think it's worth a revolution, sobeit.
I'll see you on the barricades Watts, you won't be able to miss me, I'll be the one toting Prescott's vacant head on a pike.
 
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ElectricMick

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
This is all very interesting - Having qualified in the last 12 months I have found the legistlation a bit of a nightmare- as I said in previous post I have a very flexible LABC who don't really seem too interested. As their senior surveyor told me "I have no room to file all these certificates". Its this part p thing thats a killer - having taken, and passed the part p exam I then found I was required to part with another large sum of money to register. Not done it yet as £117.50 to LABC for notifyable is not killing me for the time being. After 30 years in military I thought I was getting away from too many rules and regulations when I decided to go down the electrician route. How wrong could I be. I have learned more in the last few weeks on this forum than any of the books/statutory instruments ever taught. I wish I could just concentrate on getting on and doing a good job, instead of worrying about who wants what certs and when.
 
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PAUL M

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  • #22
I have done loads of nic stuff (for others)

My own (none nic) stuff is a better job, 100% of times
in your opinion .im going to invent a engine that can run off the gas produced from bullshine :eek: i reckon you and carter could produce enough between ya to run eddie stobarts fleet for at least six months:p
 
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Just to clarify a few points.

Part P is a self certification scheme. Ie electricians registered under the scheme can only certify their own work, no one elses.

A lot of LABC will not accept a PIR in place of a Part P certificate as this only indicates that electrical installation safety tests had been carried out, but a PIR does not verify that the installation complies fully with BS7671:2008
requirements- ie cable routings etc

The LABC will supervise and pass off the work without the need for a Part P certificate, However they will want to inspect the the erection of the installation from the beginning, first fix of cables, cable routes etc.

There are whole a lot of reasons why I personally wouldn't sign of someone elses work under a Part P scheme, but the main one is Public Liability Insurance. The premium for P.L.I rises considerably when you are certifying other peoples work and as such I doubt an electrician would be covered for issuing a part P certificate on work not carried out by himself.

Unfortunatley the OP is in an unfortunate position as his extension is nearly finished and the only advice I can offer is for him to try and contact the electrician direct and ask him to complete the work and issue a Part P certificate (assuming he can issue a Part P certificate)
 
J

jonnychez

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
Just spoke to a very helpful guy in Building control. He is going to check on whether there is a work around to my issue and let me know later today.

If he can't, I'm going to have to rip off everything that covers any cables, basically the ceilings, the plaster and the tiles. :(.
 
R

rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #25
Just spoke to a very helpful guy in Building control. He is going to check on whether there is a work around to my issue and let me know later today.

If he can't, I'm going to have to rip off everything that covers any cables, basically the ceilings, the plaster and the tiles. :(.
Hi
Please keep us informed as to what goes on ,and dont go ripping down the ceilings thats rubbish ,who ever told you that is a ----:eek:
all the best with it
 
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jonnychez

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  • #26
Spoke to helpful, Building control guy again. He said there is a possibility that they can do something but he needs to be clear on the legal ramifications before he can commit.
 
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sparky1ste

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #27
there is another way? get a new c/u fitted and not only give you the part p you want but get a 10 year cert aswell.and by the way to other sparks napit do 3rd party testing but on your own neck if the routes of cable are in the wrong zones etc.thats why building control ask to remove and replace the cable.
 
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tony.towa

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #28
Showing how good Part P is and how it makes sense of the industry situation take this scenario.
A fully qualified electrician, not local authority registered, employed by the local authority within the building control department, rewires his own house. He is not able to certify the work with a Part P certificate and so contacts building control and pays for an inspection. He is then sent by building control to certify the work he has carried out in his own home.

Ah, you say, that could never happen. Well it did this year in a local authority near me.
Considering that a major three phase installation can be signed off by a "competant person" the need for Part P still baffles me.
 
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rumrunner

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #29
Showing how good Part P is and how it makes sense of the industry situation take this scenario.
A fully qualified electrician, not local authority registered, employed by the local authority within the building control department, rewires his own house. He is not able to certify the work with a Part P certificate and so contacts building control and pays for an inspection. He is then sent by building control to certify the work he has carried out in his own home.

Ah, you say, that could never happen. Well it did this year in a local authority near me.
Considering that a major three phase installation can be signed off by a "competant person" the need for Part P still baffles me.
That just about sums it up ,total madness:eek:
 
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jonnychez

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #30
Just spoke to Building Control and they have informed me that they will do it, subject to a fee. I'll have to fill in some forms etc.

I'll try and get some more info regarding the legislation if I can.

Cheers for all the advise guys.
 
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