Apprenticeshipsxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Pete999]

As the title suggests, what constitutes an Electrical Apprenticeship in this modern world we live in today?
There have been a few threads lately "Ive done this course or that course, how do I get an Apprenticeship?"
Well to be honest with you I would like to know, not because I want one at 71 and fter more years than I want to remember after completing mine, I would like to know, to be able to offer some advice to the Lads and Lasses who are aspiring to become Electricians, not Domestic Installers, but real Electricians, I would like to help people, but when you are faced with people in their 20s 30s asking about Apprenticeships, it seems alien to to me, maybe I should give up, cus it's baffeling how to answer.

 

[telectrix]

agree pete. so many courses nowadays and it don't help when they change all the numbers. e.g. 2391 becomes 2394/5 then 2391 again.bit like roulette. pick a number and hope it's a winner.

 

[Jim90]

I guess carrying out an apprenticeship was deemed as something you did when you left school, obviously it’s a way of learning while working in the given trade, regardless of age. The bad thing is with starting later, is the wage. £150 a week went a long way living with parents and to only run a mo-ped!
I guess the only other way is becoming an improver and picking up a few courses.

I’m time served and started my apprenticeship at 16. I’m now 27. Been in the trade all my working life. I found a large commercial company to sponser my apprenticeship and the rest is history!

 

[JAWS]

Deleted.....

 

[Pete999]

My apprenticeship was what they called then a labourer where mixing up for a gang 6 plasterers 5 days a week sometimes 10hr days. Was the hardest yrs work I've ever done.

Nt really an Apprenticeship Massive1

 

[JAWS]

Nt really an Apprenticeship Massive1

Yeah good point I'll get my jacket I think.

 

[Pete999]

Yeah good point I'll get my jacket I think.

No disrespect meat mate, just voicing my opinion.

 

[JAWS]

No disrespect meat mate, just voicing my opinion.

Don't be silly Pete I didn't take your post like that at all. I tend to jump in sometimes without fully thinking my post through.

 

[Dave OCD]

My son is doing an apprenticeship with me as previously mentioned on here. It's 42 months/3 and a half years now, 4 days a week working with me and 1 day a week at college ['Day Release']. The final qualification on completion I believe is a level 3 NVQ, lots of tests along the way and compilation of a portfolio demonstrating evidence [photos, write ups] of different types of work carried out. There's a fair emphasis on H&S as you'd expect nowadays.

 

[freddo]

There's a fair emphasis on H&S as you'd expect nowadays.

That appears to be all that is being taught, rather than more useful things like how to bend conduit and how to strip/gland/terminate cables etc.

 

[ashrow]

I did mine like Dave OCD son is doing, day release 1 day per week term time (that was 30 years ago as a "yts" apprentice)
I hope that's how apprenticeship are done still (anyone can get a qualification/pass a course but on the job training i feel is the experience that really makes the tradesman

 

[Dave OCD]

That appears to be all that is being taught, rather than more useful things like how to bend conduit and how to strip/gland/terminate cables etc.

Exactly Freddo, but I'm doing my best to educate him in the useful stuff.

 

[MJPD29]

I left school and went straight out working for a company 25 miles from my house. Cost me more to get to work than i earned every week £40, and this was in 2008) and to be honest I hated most of it but it was worth sticking out even through the days were I was stuck in the attic of a hospital surrounded by nothing but fibreglass insulation and try to to hear what orders were being barked at me from the all knowing sparks down below

 

[KEV 1 N]

I left school and went straight out working for a company 25 miles from my house. Cost me more to get to work than i earned every week £40, and this was in 2008) and to be honest I hated most of it but it was worth sticking out even through the days were I was stuck in the attic of a hospital surrounded by nothing but fibreglass insulation and try to to hear what orders were being barked at me from the all knowing sparks down below

That reminds me of my house bashing days when I had to go in the loft, an earth rod would be poked up the hole where the light was and this saved having to disturb the fibre glass. You you soon learnt not to stand over the light!

 

[7029 dave]

I understand how Pete feels,when folk are lets say mature learners.I started at 15 as Saturday boy,school holidays etc, then left school at 16 started the full apprenticeship.

But moving on many decades lol , just completed my gas safe at the age of 53. This is the new world/way. Lets face it we all got to work till we drop, so age don't really matter.

 

[Adam Lench]

As far as I know nowadays it's all based on the NVQ system. When I left school in 98 I was lucky enough to move straight into a "modern apprenticeship" this constituted of...
1st year full time college sitting NVQ in basic engineering principles. Also 1st year of City + Guilds 2360. This is where you were taught all the basic stuff needed to be a spark. Including conduit bending "sets" and threading as Fredo mentioned earlier.
2nd year was day release sitting C+G 2360 part 2 (1 day a week at college + 4 on job training).
3rd year was again day release where we had options. We had to sit BS7671 and could also do the "C course" this was the follow on to 2360, but a lot harder.
4th year was mainly working on your "portfolio" in preparation for final assessment by the NVQ apprenticeship assessor. You could also attend C+G 2391 in 4th year. The portfolio, final assessment and completion of all the courses gained you the full apprenticeship. It was a while ago now, but that's roughly how I remember it. I do believe this is still the best way to get a broad range of skills to set you up in the trade. I would be really interested to see how it's done in 2017.

 

[Toneyz]

For me, it was always my vocation of what I wanted to do before I left school. I am interested to hear what has made many (as posted on here) go into the industry later on in life. I also feel sorry for a lot of these lads nowadays just used as cheap labour and don't get fully mentored now you could argue the rights and wrongs of it.

 

[Lip.82]

I put myself through college on a evening course for four years (C&G L2&3) I have to wait for the 18th edition to come out before I can do my reg's course and then inspection and testing and then NVQ 3.
I have been lucky enough to be working in the trade for the passed 6 years gaining valuable experience. I'm lucky enough to have a boss who is willing to teach me and help me as much as he can. Not an apprenticeship I know.
I'm now 35 and have 3 kids so I couldn't afford to do an apprenticeship as I hAve a family to provide for so this was my only option to become an electrician. I would like to go down the industrial path so any advice on which courses would help with this would be much appreciated

 

[JAWS]

For me, it was always my vocation of what I wanted to do before I left school. I am interested to hear what has made many (as posted on here) go into the industry later on in life. I also feel sorry for a lot of these lads nowadays just used as cheap labour and don't get fully mentored now you could argue the rights and wrongs of it.

Good question Anthony for me it's something I've always been interested in but when I was 20 took up another trade at the time & decided now in later life I'll give my self a chance on trying to become an electrician.

Will I succeed I'm not sure 50/50, or maybe 30/70 not in my favour I really don't know, will I be gutted if I don't, no not at all.

Unfortunately there are still many electricians about who are unwilling to accept someone calling them self an electrician unless they're time served apprentices but in later life getting an apprenticeship is a non-runner so many do have to take different routes yet they're squirmed upon like "how dare you go down this route, " or if you haven't biked 10 mile everyday to work under another electrician for £50 a week you're throwned upon" or if you just want to be a Domestic Installer then straight away ( you're not a proper electrician) & immediately downgraded.

How many electricians can we safely say who have families to feed, rent & bills to be paid who can honestly say they they'd take on someone & train them up while most probably earning a lot less due to watching over them, I doubt you'd get many rushing to the front of the queue signing up.

 

[Jay Sparks]

The new standards (apprenticeship) for the installation electrician is the Level 3 Electrotechnical qualification (installation) or
(maintenance) (5357-03).

It consists of 3 - 31/2 years at college doing the technical units and portfolio units. Once these have been signed off, the apprentice must pass the AM2. There are a lot of practical exams in the technical units, including 4 different types of safe isolation, a 10 hour build/installation to name a few. The portfolio has 6 units to complete and all but three of them have to be done on at least two separate occasions.

For the portfolio, the apprentice will have to install 4 different cable types from a list of 8 and install 4 different containment types from a list of 10. They will also have to terminate 4 different cable types and install and terminate at least 5 accessories from a list of 11.

There is also the inspection & testing unit and fault diagnosis and rectification units to complete.

There are 126 criteria altogether in the portfolio, so these are just a few of them.

Hope this makes sense?

Jay

 

[Pete999]

The new standards (apprenticeship) for the installation electrician is the Level 3 Electrotechnical qualification (installation) or
(maintenance) (5357-03).

It consists of 3 - 31/2 years at college doing the technical units and portfolio units. Once these have been signed off, the apprentice must pass the AM2. There are a lot of practical exams in the technical units, including 4 different types of safe isolation, a 10 hour build/installation to name a few. The portfolio has 6 units to complete and all but three of them have to be done on at least two separate occasions.

For the portfolio, the apprentice will have to install 4 different cable types from a list of 8 and install 4 different containment types from a list of 10. They will also have to terminate 4 different cable types and install and terminate at least 5 accessories from a list of 11.

There is also the inspection & testing unit and fault diagnosis and rectification units to complete.

There are 126 criteria altogether in the portfolio, so these are just a few of them.

Hope this makes sense?

Jay

Clear as a bell thanks Jay

 

[Squid]

£150 a week went a long way living with parents and to only run a mo-ped!

Jeeez you where minted I was on 89p an hour and took the bus.

 

[Pete999]

My first pay at qualifying was £14 and 7shillings per week take home, £14:70 about in today's money

 

[telectrix]

you maths is slipping, pete £14-7-0 is £14.35.

but for that 7shillings, you could buy 3 pints and 20 smokes.

 

[Pete999]

you maths is slipping, pete £14-7-0 is £14.35.

It's only a number Tel

 

[7029 dave]

Jeeez you where minted I was on 89p an hour and took the bus.

Same as, but was on 62p an hour.circa 1979.

 

[Pete999]

Same as, but was on 62p an hour.circa 1979.

1979, I was just back from a years solitary confinement up some poxy mountain in Cyprus, and don't say a year in the Sun, it bloody snowed for 5 months, snow you have never seen snow like it.

 

[7029 dave]

1979, I was just back from a years solitary confinement up some poxy mountain in Cyprus, and don't say a year in the Sun, it bloody snowed for 5 months, snow you have never seen snow like it.

In the military then Pete.?

 

[Pete999]

In the military then Pete.?

No Dave Department of the Environment, Property Services Agency, Authorised Person, Foreman M&E 1 year tour, might as well have been in the Military though.
And I volunteered what a pillock.

 

[telectrix]

Same as, but was on 62p an hour.circa 1979.

when i started apprenticeship in 1966 was on £6/5/0 a week.

 

[Pete999]

when i started apprenticeship in 1966 was on £6/5/0 a week.

Finished mine in 62,can't recall my pay groats went out about that time.

 

[Deleted member 104825]

Oh the golden days of apprenticeship (NOT).
I was a toolroom machinist (yes a tool) and in 1977 I got £17.06 a week - the apprentices from Vauxhall/Cadbury/Moons got about £27...
As an aside:-
When I first got it I could pay Mum 25% and pay for fish/chips for lunch, bus fares etc AND get hammered 4 nights a week (Th/F/Sa/Su) with my mate Spud, just before the annual rise I could only get hammered 2 nights (but Spud was then at Uni luckily or it'd be just Thursday :-( and it wasn't as if chips or bus fares had gone up much, I was just a bit of a p!sshead!!

 

[Pete999]

When I wer a Lad the bloke I was working would give me a shilling 5 p send me to the shop get some donuts and a daily sketch, aye up times were hard

 

[gazdkw82]

Iv just started an apprenticeship but it’s abit of an odd one.

I’m 34 so classed as a mature apprentice. Iv also completed C&G level 2 (as had 4 others) and so we have been placed with the 2nd year apprentices.

The new apprenticeship is called 5357 technical standard and follows the same path as before to be classed as qualified

C&G level 3 tech
The nvq (work portfolio)
Am2

The college don’t seem to have full knowledge of the new course guidelines and structure, or so it seems that way.

 

[Squid]

Same as, but was on 62p an hour.circa 1979.

Mine was in 1980 must have been the London Weighting that bumped it up lol

 

[Squid]

1979, I was just back from a years solitary confinement up some poxy mountain in Cyprus, and don't say a year in the Sun, it bloody snowed for 5 months, snow you have never seen snow like it.

I was in Poland years ago in winter and at night it got to -28 and during the day -15 but the funny thing is the Poles complain how cold it is in the UK as it damp cold lol

 

[Sam662]

Just started an apprenticeship at 25, level 3 electrotechnical qualification installation/maintenance 5357-03, wish I'd have done one when I was in my teens but C'est la vie.

I'm on £221 a week which is amazing for these young apprentice but a bit on the lean side considering I'm living away from my parents so that 211 has to cover everything.

Got to agree with gazdkw82 in regards to the college seemingly not having a full grasp on the new structure of the qualification, which is more than a little frustrating. Thankfully the company I'm with has put me with an electrician who has taken a genuine interest in teaching me and not just making me his glorified tool carry.

 

[Sam662]

 

[Phil Thompson]

When I did mine starting 1996, it was 6 weeks in college and 6 weeks on placement.
I did jobskills as was 18, so got the dole £37.80 iirc plus a tenner and travel.
I had a firm that was close (7-8min walk) so never claimed travel.
Did all written exams and AM1 then

Then second year was 1 day of 12hrs and third year was 3hrs one evening a week.
The final half year was all work and then did AM2.

I passed first go as did the other lad my stage.

But only a handful of the following years apprentices passed first go if they even got the chance to do it.
After 1st year all apprentices got JIB rate. Irregardless of the employer being a JIB firm, so the wages were good. Very good for the time in fact. Jumping on average £60-70 a year. Then on qualifying they only jumped up about £25 to £234 in your hand in 2000, as you no longer got the JIB rates.

I’ve taken on a lad and he is doing level 2 for 2 years then level 3 for 2 years.

First 2 years the college pay him £40 a week plus travel.
But they must attend 2 days a week for those 2 years, and at moment they’re doing an extra day for an employability Unit.

It appears in NI at least that the JiB rate for apprentices is no longer enforced, this seems to be due to employers not taking on any apprentices. JIB rate for a 1st year is £4.83 an hour. That’s some money to find every week for a lad that can only gopher and watch for the first lot of months. Especially if working to a 1 man band.

But as said above they don’t learn much Electrical in the 2 days as it’s mostly H&S based, the 1st year level 3 kids, whilst getting a day less in college must learn literally no practical in college if they have to do all that H&S stuff in 1 day.

 

[Marti]

How many electricians can we safely say who have families to feed, rent & bills to be paid who can honestly say they they'd take on someone & train them up while most probably earning a lot less due to watching over them, I doubt you'd get many rushing to the front of the queue signing up.

That's hitting the 2.5 cable clip squarely on the head and a number of the comments in this thread have spoken the truth about the world of employment training as it is today; not as it was even ten years ago.

Second and third career paths are the norm to any fifty-something and that's not due to poor choices when young. It's often due to a changing market and technology as well as longer working life. That means more mature students with responsibilities. Also, employers have changed, and very few of the changes are to the positive. More on that anon.

Matures can't / won't spend a year chopping boxes and carrying tools for £7 an hour; especially when they will be coughing up £6,000 in college fees because employers aren't going to pay those either.

The mature who is working as an improver and completing a C&G at college IS doing the equivalent of a modern apprenticeship in difficult circumstances, and those changed employers I mentioned above. Take on a group of young apprentices, pay them poorly for as along as they can then dismiss them on totally fictitious grounds, RETAINING ALL TRAINING RECORDS AS COMPANY DOCUMENTATION! The youngsters are now all resitting the C&G at their own expense and and would not touch a "real" apprenticeship. I agree that something needs to be done about the "qualified in five weeks" offerings. They are nothing short of criminal but as long as the standard advice is "a proper five year apprenticeship", those giving the advice need to bear some of the responsibility as their recruiting sergeants.

No offence intended to anyone here. just trying to add to a much needed debate.

 

[Toneyz]

I would like to know from anyone that has gone on one of this so-called Electrical Trainee what this course teaches ?.

 

[Pete999]

I would like to know from anyone that has gone on one of this so-called Electrical Trainee what this course teaches ?.

How to be an Electrician in 5 weeks just kidding Ant not a lot I should imagine Mate

 

[Toneyz]

How to be an Electrician in 5 weeks just kidding Ant not a lot I should imagine Mate

Well everyone keeps banging on about them and never met anyone who has been on one, good to hear from the horse's mouth as to speak

 

[Marti]

Not my experience; been told:
A few domestic circuits on a bit of plywood board. Some SWA. Wire a dead CCU and play with an MFT on a no-fault circuit. Ohm's Law, Three phase. The On-site Guide. GN3. Threw in a few handtools "for when they start work" and a lot of rubbish about earning potential to keep 'em paying for more. It's criminal from any perspective. Day one of my C&G L2 & L3 we signed to say we understood this does not a sparky make. Name one other field where you openly sell something not fit for purpose and not answer for it? Oh yea, heroin.