commisioning fire alarm

[Darkwood]

Oh great!!! Got me panicking now as I quoted based on the council and the designers requests of what’s required (now the system is already installed) I’m now thinking I’ve either underquoted if it requires a lot More work or I leave it and left myself open should anything happen. Would I not be covered based on paperwork from the council stating there requirements and the designer commissioning the system

If you have an independent designer and the council is giving you the required level of protection then your arse is covered, it is there design, just make sure you keep a paper trail and don't lose any letters or emails ..

 

[Darkwood]

If you get the job state clearly to the wholesalers the level of system in email that you require and keep and document all responses and confirmation, this is part of the requirements, I guess that I have needed to explain this that you do not hold the required regulations to follow, this is a dangerous position to be in if you go beyond domestic which itsekf tends to have enough guidelines on design for the average spark to follow without buying the regs .. when you move out of domestic I would definitely be buying the regs both parts 1 and 6

 

[Darkwood]

Ps given the expected tenants, if the designer hasn't put in sounders in the bedrooms, lounge etc of the flats from the communal alarm I would be raising questions but info is limited here and I may be over complicating this design based on one I recently did.

 

[Michaelwgroves]

As the council are involved I suspect it is a HMO. Even a block of self-contained flats can be classed as a HMO. If they do not comply with building regulations from 1991, they will likely be classed as HMO.
I would take a look at LACORS, it's free and very good. It is the bible for an installation such as this.
https://www.rla.org.uk/docs/LACORSFSguideApril62009.PDF
In all honesty I don't think you should be signing this off, If you are not confident enough to design, you are not competent to commission. Part of commissioning is to check the correct detectors and sounders are located in the correct positions. Are the MCP's located on the correct zone. The design engineer does not typically have the benefit of a site visit. So he won't allow 2 detectors to overcome a drop beam etc. It's your job as the commissioning engineer to spot these design flaws.

 

[westward10]

Ceiling beams are only an issue if the are 20% or above the floor to ceiling height in which case you treat them as walls.

 

[Michaelwgroves]

Ceiling beams are only an issue if the are 20% or above the floor to ceiling height in which case you treat them as walls.

Correction, it's 10%

Here's a nice pocket guide you can get from your wholesaler, I also got one from Apollo. Nice and easy reference guide.
https://www.hochikieurope.com/storage/resources/bs5839-1512041771.pdf

 

[westward10]

You are quite correct just looked in my BS5839:1 don't know where 20% came from

 

[Darkwood]

@essex

Noted you have been handing out disagreements in this thread including mine which I have no issue on, I am interested why you disagree though, I simply was stating what the regulations state in this matter and the liasons required to cover ones butt.

 

[Nigel]

@essex

Noted you have been handing out disagreements in this thread including mine which I have no issue on, I am interested why you disagree though, I simply was stating what the regulations state in this matter and the liasons required to cover ones butt.

Your advice based on photos cannot be verified. It is up for the Responsible Person to indicate the level of fire alarm required in the FRA. As no contractor is the RP they cannot ‘overule’.

The Op needs to request the FRA and no doubt this will detail a Grade A, LD2 system that has already been mentioned by the op.

This system is a domestic system so that indicates to me that this building is either a HMO or a building of over three storeys as per the Standard. However it may just be the case that the LBA just have a blanket policy of this system in all its properties.

This system requires detectors in all circulation areas that form part of an escape route (corridors and landings for example) and rooms of high risk (kitchens and communal living areas). The FRA should detail what rooms would be classed as high risk.

It is also worth noting that even though this is a Part 6 domestic system that is being specified due to the classification of a Grade A system it must be installed to the same specification as a Part 1 system. Standard FP should be ok but it could be the FRA requests enhanced cable to be installed.

Sounders in every bedroom is a certainty to meet db levels and there should be a minimum of two sounder circuits.

An auto-dialling system is certainly not required in this instance and is not a requirement of Grade A LP2 systems.

To answer the op, commissioning of the fire alarm will involve looking at the FRA, looking at the design and ensuring the installation reflects this. Then ensuring the fire alarm system operates as it should. In your case I would consider it prudent to engage the sub-contractor to do the commissioning so you can be certain theninstallation is acceptable.

 

[Darkwood]

Your advice based on photos cannot be verified. It is up for the Responsible Person to indicate the level of fire alarm required in the FRA. As no contractor is the RP they cannot ‘overule’.

The Op needs to request the FRA and no doubt this will detail a Grade A, LD2 system that has already been mentioned by the op.

This system is a domestic system so that indicates to me that this building is either a HMO or a building of over three storeys as per the Standard. However it may just be the case that the LBA just have a blanket policy of this system in all its properties.

This system requires detectors in all circulation areas that form part of an escape route (corridors and landings for example) and rooms of high risk (kitchens and communal living areas). The FRA should detail what rooms would be classed as high risk.

It is also worth noting that even though this is a Part 6 domestic system that is being specified due to the classification of a Grade A system it must be installed to the same specification as a Part 1 system. Standard FP should be ok but it could be the FRA requests enhanced cable to be installed.

Sounders in every bedroom is a certainty to meet db levels and there should be a minimum of two sounder circuits.

An auto-dialling system is certainly not required in this instance and is not a requirement of Grade A LP2 systems.

To answer the op, commissioning of the fire alarm will involve looking at the FRA, looking at the design and ensuring the installation reflects this. Then ensuring the fire alarm system operates as it should. In your case I would consider it prudent to engage the sub-contractor to do the commissioning so you can be certain theninstallation is acceptable.

The photos to me are glaringly obvious that there is drug abuse active in these flats, that is all I need to take from the photo unless you disagree with that evaluation?

Some of the points you raised were reflected in my later posts, the OP posted a picture of the type of tenant we may expect could be in these premises, now give the council recommendation was LD3 I do not believe this reflected the nature of the tenants unless there was info' that hasn't been disclosed here. In reflection of the possibility or probability that tenants are drug users etc then the system installed should reflect the added issues that this comes with.

I cannot vouch for his local building control I'll give you that nor can I know how they gauge their requirements but I can give an informed opinion on recent systems I have installed in HMO's where this is a typical type of tenant and I have fitted a system I suggested which reflected the higher risks associated with the tenants behaviour, since fitting this system 6yrs ago there has been 2 fire events caused by tenants on drugs which were dealt with fast and efficiently with no loss of life and just minor property damage, it was the fact the system was a mix of LD1 overlapping a grade D system to the flats that the tenants got out in the effected flat, an LD3 may have seen loss of life to those in the effected flats had they not had there own independent system installed.

PS - cheers for expanding on your disagreement, it is nice to know other members opinions be they negative or positive, this is how we learn, I am a stickler when it comes to members hitting disagree then posting nothing unless it is clearly obvious exactly what you are disagreeing with, in this case I needed more info so hope you understand me calling you out on it.

 

[Nigel]

The photos to me are glaringly obvious that there is drug abuse active in these flats, that is all I need to take from the photo unless you disagree with that evaluation?

Some of the points you raised were reflected in my later posts, the OP posted a picture of the type of tenant we may expect could be in these premises, now give the council recommendation was LD3 I do not believe this reflected the nature of the tenants unless there was info' that hasn't been disclosed here. In reflection of the possibility or probability that tenants are drug users etc then the system installed should reflect the added issues that this comes with.

I cannot vouch for his local building control I'll give you that nor can I know how they gauge their requirements but I can give an informed opinion on recent systems I have installed in HMO's where this is a typical type of tenant and I have fitted a system I suggested which reflected the higher risks associated with the tenants behaviour, since fitting this system 6yrs ago there has been 2 fire events caused by tenants on drugs which were dealt with fast and efficiently with no loss of life and just minor property damage, it was the fact the system was a mix of LD1 overlapping a grade D system to the flats that the tenants got out in the effected flat, an LD3 may have seen loss of life to those in the effected flats had they not had there own independent system installed.

PS - cheers for expanding on your disagreement, it is nice to know other members opinions be they negative or positive, this is how we learn, I am a stickler when it comes to members hitting disagree then posting nothing unless it is clearly obvious exactly what you are disagreeing with, in this case I needed more info so hope you understand me calling you out on it.

My point is that it is not for the contractor to go against what the RP has stated is required. The RP has stated LP2 Grade A so that is what must be installed. It is not a recommendation, it is a requirement.

 

[Nigel]

Oh great!!! Got me panicking now as I quoted based on the council and the designers requests of what’s required (now the system is already installed) I’m now thinking I’ve either underquoted if it requires a lot More work or I leave it and left myself open should anything happen. Would I not be covered based on paperwork from the council stating there requirements and the designer commissioning the system

If the council is the owner then the grade of FA will have come from their RP for this building. So long as you have installed to their specification of FA then you have nothing to worry about. If their specification is incorrect that is their problem, not yours....