UK Fully reversible install

[evstruggler]

I am looking to implement a fully reversible solution that I can really easily dismantle if needed as it’s a rental property. There is no isolator switch and in any case I don't want to split the tails to feed the main consumer unit and a mini consumer unit.

It's a Hager consumer unit with a mains isolator and 2x circuit breakers.

I am thinking 40A MCB in the main consumer unit connected by tails or SWA to a Garo G6EV40PME 40A EV Consumer Unit with Type A RCBO and PME Fault Detection connected by SWA to a commando socket. Intend to limit charging to 16A. Or alternatively connected to a standard outdoor socket and charging at 13A.

Whilst this may not be strictly compliant would it safely work?

 

[westward10]

The 16A socket is not compliant for a dwelling nor is it suitable for EV charging at a dwelling. Your landlord needs consulting for this.

 

[evstruggler]

The 16A socket is not compliant for a dwelling nor is it suitable for EV charging at a dwelling. Your landlord needs consulting for this.

From everything I have read this is not accurate. At worst it is a grey area. There would be no reason for commando EV chargers to be on sale if it was not allowed.

Anyway my point is not if it is 100% compliant or not. Using a 13A granny charger is compliant but not the best option.

A suitable connection from a 40A MCB to a 32A RCBO with PEN fault detection to a shuttered/interlocked 32A commando properly wired should be safe. In my view safer than the compliant granny charging setup unless someone can tell me why otherwise.

If the landlord doesn’t like it when moving out it’s a simple disconnect at the 40A MCB.

 

[westward10]

From everything I have read this is not accurate. At worst it is a grey area. There would be no reason for commando EV chargers to be on sale if it was not allowed.

Anyway my point is not if it is 100% compliant or not. Using a 13A granny charger is compliant but not the best option.

A suitable connection from a 40A MCB to a 32A RCBO with PEN fault detection to a shuttered/interlocked 32A commando properly wired should be safe. In my view safer than the compliant granny charging setup unless someone can tell me why otherwise.

If the landlord doesn’t like it when moving out it’s a simple disconnect at the 40A MCB.

Well I bow to your "better judgement" what do I know. You come on here asking if this is compliant, I tell you it is not but you have already made up your mind it will be fine even if it is not 100% compliant whatever that means.

 

[evstruggler]

No what I said was “Whilst this may not be strictly compliant would it safely work?”

Compliant and safety are not always the same. If not overloaded then it may not be compliant but should be safe unless you can tell me a reason otherwise.

I am wanting to know if it would be unsafe and if so why.

 

[westward10]

You quoted my statement in #2 is not accurate I can assure you it is.

 

[evstruggler]

You quoted my statement in #2 is not accurate I can assure you it is.

Ok let’s go with it’s not compliant and can never be in a domestic setting.

If it’s safe and works then what’s the worst thing that’s going to happen - a buyer may want it reverted? Ok easy enough.

It may not get an electrical safety certificate- ok, can just disconnect the 40A MCB from the Garo mini CU and all good.

Also a commando not for charging an EV is compliant directly wired into the MCB. Unless the evse is connected to the commando who is to say otherwise.

So ultimately accepting it is not compliant for EV charging is there any technical reason it would not work or would be unsafe?

 

[westward10]

No the "commando" socket is not compliant in a dwelling full stop whether for an EV charger or not. I install compliant so to comment as to whether it is safe and works is not relevant and is a very naive opinion on your part.

 

[evstruggler]

No the "commando" socket is not compliant in a dwelling full stop whether for an EV charger or not. I install compliant so to comment as to whether it is safe and works is not relevant and is a very naive opinion on your part.

The legislators make all kinds of rules but doesn’t mean they always know best. Also rules change all the time and I have seen some truly shocking electronics when having a house I purchased rewired. So it may not be relevant to you but it is to me and not wanting to discuss risks on merit rather than rules doesn’t make any sense to me. Progress comes from understanding not just following.

 

[littlespark]

The reason is they are not shuttered. That’s why they’re not allowed in domestic property’s where children may be present.

Whether you have children or not, or whether they are likely to poke things into electrical outlets is neither here nor there.

If you’re going to add a circuit to power a commando socket, which you may take out in the future…. Why don’t you just hardwire the EV equipment and remove it when the time comes?


There’s more to fitting an EV point than just the connecting up.
Not only the landlord, but the electricity network provider needs notified.

 

[evstruggler]

The reason is they are not shuttered. That’s why they’re not allowed in domestic property’s where children may be present.

Whether you have children or not, or whether they are likely to poke things into electrical outlets is neither here nor there.

If you’re going to add a circuit to power a commando socket, which you may take out in the future…. Why don’t you just hardwire the EV equipment and remove it when the time comes?


There’s more to fitting an EV point than just the connecting up.
Not only the landlord, but the electricity network provider needs notified.

Interlocked commando is not live unless a proper connection is made so no issues with children poking things etc.

Mainly cost and ease of removing it are the reasons for not going down the full EV route.

I have asked the DNO about the costs of installing an isolator switch and waiting to hear. If prohibitive then the cost effective option is to take a cable from the 40A MCB on the main consumer unit to a secondary CU with the pen protection etc. The commando EVSE will have most of the protections built in anyway so doubling up here.

When I move out or when electrical safety inspection is due all I would need to do is remove the connection to the 40A MCB in the main CU and no harm no foul.

 

[westward10]

Interlocked commando is not live unless a proper connection is made so no issues with children poking things etc.

Mainly cost and ease of removing it are the reasons for not going down the full EV route.

I have asked the DNO about the costs of installing an isolator switch and waiting to hear. If prohibitive then the cost effective option is to take a cable from the 40A MCB on the main consumer unit to a secondary CU with the pen protection etc. The commando EVSE will have most of the protections built in anyway so doubling up here.

When I move out or when electrical safety inspection is due all I would need to do is remove the connection to the 40A MCB in the main CU and no harm no foul.

Interlocked or not it is not shuttered Regulations do not make the comparison.

 

[littlespark]

To make things perfectly clear to anyone else reading this.

It is NOT compliant.

It is NOT safe.


It won’t be following the manufacturers instructions either.

We advise strongly against doing what you’re proposing.

You think you’re saving money, saving some difficult questions later on?
Do it right in the first place. Do it legally.

There’s a heck of a lot of power running a car charger for many hours at a time. This can not only increase the risk of a fire, but also the severity of the damage caused.



This is the third (I think) recent thread all following the same question of commando sockets supplying a car charger. All with the same answer.
I think I’m going to see numerous online adverts for commando sockets soon.

 

[evstruggler]

To make things perfectly clear to anyone else reading this.

It is NOT compliant.

It is NOT safe.


It won’t be following the manufacturers instructions either.

We advise strongly against doing what you’re proposing.

You think you’re saving money, saving some difficult questions later on?
Do it right in the first place. Do it legally.

There’s a heck of a lot of power running a car charger for many hours at a time. This can not only increase the risk of a fire, but also the severity of the damage caused.



This is the third (I think) recent thread all following the same question of commando sockets supplying a car charger. All with the same answer.
I think I’m going to see numerous online adverts for commando sockets soon.

I agree it’s not regulation compliant but you haven’t provided any technical reason that makes it unsafe.

Provided there is no overloading and the connections are properly done then even a simple 32A MCB connected to a commando with a suitable load rated cable would pose no greater fire risk than a dedicated EV install. What it wouldn’t have is the earth leakage, pen fault etc. protections unless built into the EVSE.

Also just because the regulations say shuttered doesn’t mean interlocked is not as protected or safe. Not live you can jam whatever you want into the socket and nothing is going to happen.

 

[littlespark]

Rules and regs have been developed over the years to make things safer.

Compliment = safe

Ergo,

non compliant = not safe


Now you can bring up all sorts of hypothetical scenarios that seem “safe” but without proper testing, you can’t be 100% certain.

 

[Brother Blue]

When I move out or when electrical safety inspection is due all I would need to do is remove the connection to the 40A MCB in the main CU and no harm no foul.

If you feel it is necessary to remove/hide it prior to a safety inspection then that implies you know it is unsafe.
If not unsafe, then why hide it from a safety inspection?

 

[westward10]

You can lead a horse to water..........................

 

[mainline]

The reason is they are not shuttered. That’s why they’re not allowed in domestic property’s where children may be present.

Less risk than the ones in a caravan park where they drag the plugs through wet grass etc.

 

[mainline]

Whilst this may not be strictly compliant would it safely work?

A new circuit is also notifiable.

 

[mainline]

Interlocked or not it is not shuttered Regulations do not make the comparison.

(ii) one socket-outlet or connector complying with BS EN 60309-2 which is interlocked and classified to
clause 6.1.5 of BS EN 60309-1 to prevent the socket contacts being live when accessible,

 

[westward10]

(ii) one socket-outlet or connector complying with BS EN 60309-2 which is interlocked and classified to
clause 6.1.5 of BS EN 60309-1 to prevent the socket contacts being live when accessible,

??

 

[mainline]

??

Bs 7871 allows an interlocked socket.


722.55.101.0.201.1 Each AC charging point shall incorporate:
(i) one socket-outlet complying with BS 1363-2 marked ‘EV’ on its rear and, except where there is no possibility
of confusion, a label shall be provided on the front face or adjacent to the socket-outlet or its enclosure
stating: ‘suitable for electric vehicle charging’, or

(ii) one socket-outlet or connector complying with BS EN 60309-2 which is interlocked and classified to
clause 6.1.5 of BS EN 60309-1 to prevent the socket contacts being live when accessible, or
(iii) one socket-outlet or connector complying with BS EN 60309-2 which is part of an interlocked self-contained
product complying with BS EN 60309-4 and classified to clauses 6.1.101 and 6.1.102 to prevent the socket
contacts being live when accessible,

 

[westward10]

Yes but the Code of Practice only permits them in non-domestic installations.

 

[mainline]

Yes but the Code of Practice only permits them in non-domestic installations.

The intent of 553.1.201 is to prevent things from being poked into the outlet.

If the outlet is interlocked, then its compliant.

 

[westward10]

Compliant with what?

 

[mainline]

Compliant with what?

With bs7671. as @ #22

 

[westward10]

With bs7671. as @ #22

The OP asked if his proposal was compliant, no it is not. Sockets outlets for households shall be shuttered according to BS7671 unless you can show me a clause for 553.1.201 which says different.
EN 60309-2 socket outlets can be used for EV chargers in non-domestic installations according to the Code of Practice.
Now if you want to install one of these sockets in a dwelling I don't really care that is your perogative but for the purpose of this thread and which has been repeated on other threads it would not be compliant. No doubt you will still want to get the last word in.