In a scrap with a builder, advice and opinion welcome. And beer.

[Rockingit]

Evening all,

I'm slouched over the bar tonight, wondering what on earth to do with this:

Very long story cut really short - expensive prestige domestic new-build in the middle of nowhere, I won the tender (awarded by the customer but my client is the builder) and the project has done the usual trick of running way over time and budget, tensions and politics running high and the builder is a whisker away from being dismissed (his site foreman/QS has already been banned from site!).

Various threads are on here about different bits of it. Yesterday, due to the chippies having to strip back a wall because it was as bowed as a banana, I realised that it's very wet inside and wasn't keen on reinstating the wiring in that condition, so flag this up as needing inspection - get the biggest load of BS from the builder I've ever heard, so say that I won't sign it off unless the architect or BCO write me an indemnity. Builder says he'll talk to the architect, which I doubt very much. So that has set the tone for this little gem..... I flagged up back in NOVEMBER that there was a loading issue and that no-one had consulted the DNO about installing a ground source pump. In addition, this place has it's own private water plant plus a few other bits, and the loading calcs were creeping up and up. Tony and I were discussing this in part on a thread on here to do with the transformer feeding the place off the OH lines, and we ended up going over all my figures together on private email just to double check my thinking and he is in agreement, as to are a few other 'notables' amongst us, so I'm fairly sure in my standing on this. The results back from the DNO were that they needed to upgrade the transformer by a little bit, I told the builder the estimate from the DNO and life carried on.

Except that the builder has constantly stalled on telling the customer, and DNO have a 6-8 week lead time from order (place is due to finish end of next week). I got bored of this today and confronted the builder, who then span me some complete out of the blue line about having been consulting with some E&M consultant behind my back and how they were saying it doesn't need doing. Now, the fact that I am the only person on the planet that has knowledge of the full design, specs, loadings etc at the moment then how the hell some desk-driver can produce figures without talking to me is beyond me. I kicked off and stood my ground, stated very clearly that I'm not prepared to put my name and reputation to something I'm not happy with. Now, I have a deep suspicion that this E&M bloke may not actually be involved and it was just a line to try to deflate me, BUT if some set of alternative figures appear, which CAN'T be based from the normal methods prescribed by the regs, where do I stand??? Haven't called the NICEIC but they're not likely to be much use as I think they'd deem it to be a design issue (??).

This could become a contractual issue, and there's a hell of a lot of ££££'s left to collect in.

Sorry it's long - but I promise you this IS the short version!!

 

[supasparxs]

Hi Rockingit,
There is alot here, and I will re read it.
However the first couple of questions are
1)have you kept a site diary? which ideally includes
detailing times and dates on site,
other trades on site,
details of meetings,
generally anything significant that happened on site?
2)have you ever heard of a book, or series of articles in the "Electricians Times" entitled "The streetwise subbie" (Author Jack Russell ISBN 075065029X)
basically it is a book on how to protect yourself in the contracting game

 

[HandySparks]

Commiserations Rockingit. Presumably you're going to call his bluff and ask to see the consultant's signed report, with calcs.

Edit: Did you notify the builder in writing (e-mail) about the loading issue? ie can you prove a date for this if necessary?

 

[Rockingit]

There are emails and stuff aplenty, if needed I have more than enough paper trail to wave around in a court room. I also think it reasonably likely that if the customer fires the builder they'll just come to me direct, so in that sense I'm fairly happy. I've just never had a situation before where someone is trying to not have to do something and using a technical argument outside of GN3 to try to prove it.

Supa - thanks for the book tip, will have to Amazon in the morning!

 

[supasparxs]

Evening all,

I'm slouched over the bar tonight, wondering what on earth to do with this:

Very long story cut really short - expensive prestige domestic new-build in the middle of nowhere, I won the tender (awarded by the customer but my client is the builder) and the project has done the usual trick of running way over time and budget, tensions and politics running high and the builder is a whisker away from being dismissed (his site foreman/QS has already been banned from site!).

The builders foreman/QS, with him being banned from site was it due to confrontations with you or was it issues between the builder and the client?

Various threads are on here about different bits of it. Yesterday, due to the chippies having to strip back a wall because it was as bowed as a banana, I realised that it's very wet inside and wasn't keen on reinstating the wiring in that condition, so flag this up as needing inspection - get the biggest load of BS from the builder I've ever heard, so say that I won't sign it off unless the architect or BCO write me an indemnity.

Builder says he'll talk to the architect, which I doubt very much. So that has set the tone for this little gem.....

I would email the builder stating that due to the level of dampness in the area there maybe issues with the resistance of the cables. As this damage is unknown at the moment it will have to be assessed and will constitute a variation to the original contract. any remedial to rewire these works that arise due to this inspection will also be billed as a variation

I flagged up back in NOVEMBER that there was a loading issue and that no-one had consulted the DNO about installing a ground source pump. In addition, this place has it's own private water plant plus a few other bits, and the loading calcs were creeping up and up. Tony and I were discussing this in part on a thread on here to do with the transformer feeding the place off the OH lines, and we ended up going over all my figures together on private email just to double check my thinking and he is in agreement, as to are a few other 'notables' amongst us, so I'm fairly sure in my standing on this. The results back from the DNO were that they needed to upgrade the transformer by a little bit, I told the builder the estimate from the DNO and life carried on.


Except that the builder has constantly stalled on telling the customer, and DNO have a 6-8 week lead time from order (place is due to finish end of next week). I got bored of this today and confronted the builder, who then span me some complete out of the blue line about having been consulting with some E&M consultant behind my back and how they were saying it doesn't need doing.

I Have never organised new supplies from DNO
But saying that, if you designed a supply to be and the add a ground sourced heat pump and a water treatment work the load must increase. so a larger transformer maybe required.
If the builder has consulted an M&E consultant for them to calculate the size supply, ask him to put that in writing and take the responsibility for ordering the size of supply. Point out to him if it arises in the future that the supply needs upgrading the claim will be made on both their and their M&E consultants PI policies.
The change has arisen due to the change of the scope of the project and not because you had omitted it.

Now, the fact that I am the only person on the planet that has knowledge of the full design, specs, loadings etc at the moment then how the hell some desk-driver can produce figures without talking to me is beyond me. I kicked off and stood my ground, stated very clearly that I'm not prepared to put my name and reputation to something I'm not happy with. Now, I have a deep suspicion that this E&M bloke may not actually be involved and it was just a line to try to deflate me, BUT if some set of alternative figures appear, which CAN'T be based from the normal methods prescribed by the regs, where do I stand???

Haven't called the NICEIC but they're not likely to be much use as I think they'd deem it to be a design issue (??).

This could become a contractual issue, and there's a hell of a lot of ££££'s left to collect in.

Sorry it's long - but I promise you this IS the short version!!

Do everything via email
if the builder does not respond, resend it after a couple of days stating that you require a response to the previous email (with the time and date and the full correspondence with it

good luck with this one

Richard

 

[UNG]

I think it's worth BCCing the architect on all emails to the builder as a and possibly even the client from now on did a few jobs like this about 15 - 20 years ago and found if every one was in the loop no one could sight lack of knowledge as an excuse when things went pear shaped

 

[GT1]

Agree with others with the fact that if builder wants to satisfy DNO with his own figures then once it's in writing his design man takes responsibility for that end of the job. If it happens then suck it up and wait for any problems to appear on their side of the design fence.
I would send some (audit-able) correspondence to DNO too outlining everything you've said and your concerns.
Are there contractual issues with what the builder is proposing? ie reducing the size of your contract ?

 

[Rockingit]

I'm touched guys, cheers.

In no particular order: The contract was a 'whole project' one, I am the designer, there've been 4 of us in total on site under my direction to do the actual installation, and it'll be me dong the test and certify. The contract has also been to supply all parts, however they way they issued the tenders originally was as a lump sum (as in parts and labour combined under one figure) per various areas/phases of the construction. In my tender terms I included allowance for charging variations and additional work caused by actions of others, all chargeable by the hour on site. I also have a clause to allow me to charge for meetings and project management though would not normally do so.

The foreman was sacked off site by the customer due to quality/errors/general incompetence issues, and even instructed by the customer to on no account have any dealings whatsoever with any of us that remain. He must have sent me at least 10 texts and 2 or 3 emails in the last few days. He wound me up on site so much one day before Christmas that I actually offered to wrap a scaff pole round his neck....read into that what you will!!! I've subsequently discovered that he's been fired from almost every job he's ever done, and the majority of snags that now exist and all the politics are all his fault.

I originally flagged the loading issue, discussed it with them verbally and email, discussed it with the DNO regional planner verbally and email and even have a chase email from the builder to me about it, so again I think that's fairly water tight.

If whoever this M&E guy is wants to disagree with me then fine; I'll be insisting on enduring letters of indemnity from him, the builder and the architect that without consultation with the designer and contrary to designers advice they are happy to proceed 'as is', copies of which will be put on file with the BCO as well as the customer. I also think I might inform my own Professional Indemnity insurers and copy them in, too.

*****

I've cooled off a bit now, and the more I think about everything (and there's lots of this story and other areas missing from this post) I'm happy that contractually a) I've done nothing wrong, b) I believe the customer will want me to complete and pay directly if they have to and c) if it all goes legal then I think I've enough paper trail, photos and eye witnesses to be safe.

It's just a ball ache having to contend with all of this as well as trying to keep the project on track and getting the damn thing finished so that I can get my life back!!

Why do the weirdos on the bus always sit down next to me????!

I believe it's my round at the bar....only 5.45am? Stuff it, early doors all round.

Chris.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

All of the above is one reason we never work direct for builders now....if there's a builder involved we will work for the client or not at all.

 

[supasparxs]

Hi Chris,
a few years ago a builder was doing work for me (at home)
we had quality issues and snagging.
he took us to court for about £4.5k we counter-claimed for £10k
he "Phoenixed the company"

this is where he started another company, transferred all assets from the company


we went to court and found we won but no cash or assets

be careful the client may have paid for the M&E but the builder maynot have paid you yet.

 

[UNG]

he "Phoenixed the company"

this is where he started another company, transferred all assets from the company


we went to court and found we won but no cash or assets

be careful the client may have paid for the M&E but the builder maynot have paid you yet.

Isn't this called fraud !! and don't we have laws against that?

 

[baldelectrician]

. I also think I might inform my own Professional Indemnity insurers and copy them in, too.

.

Don't do this- it may flag up as a potential claim or similar.

Many insurance companies count calls questioning things as a claim or non-cost claim

Keep all your evidence incase you need it. it's better up your sleeve

 

[supasparxs]

Isn't this called fraud !! and don't we have laws against that?

I'm simplifying it.
but they stopped trading one company bought another off the shelf
stopped trading the first company and then informed the court that they were stopping the claim against us.
we restarted things reminding the court that we were still counter-claim
when we went to court and got the judgement.
we then got bailfiff involved and commuted the debt to rit a via ferious (don't quote me I could be stating it wrong) the long and the short of it the company has no assetts or cash.

BTW he joined the guild of masters builders, trying to get some credibility, but the Joint expert witnesses report was very daming

 

[1shortcircuit]

All of the above is one reason we never work direct for builders now....if there's a builder involved we will work for the client or not at all.

I have done work for a builder in the past, no materials supplied and paid on time but my experience has taught me that the trust element involved with these guys warrants not entertaining any future work they wish me to be involved in.

Client Yes, Builder NO!

 

[Eggster71]

I'm touched guys, cheers.

In no particular order: The contract was a 'whole project' one, I am the designer, there've been 4 of us in total on site under my direction to do the actual installation, and it'll be me dong the test and certify. The contract has also been to supply all parts, however they way they issued the tenders originally was as a lump sum (as in parts and labour combined under one figure) per various areas/phases of the construction. In my tender terms I included allowance for charging variations and additional work caused by actions of others, all chargeable by the hour on site. I also have a clause to allow me to charge for meetings and project management though would not normally do so.

The foreman was sacked off site by the customer due to quality/errors/general incompetence issues, and even instructed by the customer to on no account have any dealings whatsoever with any of us that remain. He must have sent me at least 10 texts and 2 or 3 emails in the last few days. He wound me up on site so much one day before Christmas that I actually offered to wrap a scaff pole round his neck....read into that what you will!!! I've subsequently discovered that he's been fired from almost every job he's ever done, and the majority of snags that now exist and all the politics are all his fault.

I originally flagged the loading issue, discussed it with them verbally and email, discussed it with the DNO regional planner verbally and email and even have a chase email from the builder to me about it, so again I think that's fairly water tight.

If whoever this M&E guy is wants to disagree with me then fine; I'll be insisting on enduring letters of indemnity from him, the builder and the architect that without consultation with the designer and contrary to designers advice they are happy to proceed 'as is', copies of which will be put on file with the BCO as well as the customer. I also think I might inform my own Professional Indemnity insurers and copy them in, too.

*****

I've cooled off a bit now, and the more I think about everything (and there's lots of this story and other areas missing from this post) I'm happy that contractually a) I've done nothing wrong, b) I believe the customer will want me to complete and pay directly if they have to and c) if it all goes legal then I think I've enough paper trail, photos and eye witnesses to be safe.

It's just a ball ache having to contend with all of this as well as trying to keep the project on track and getting the damn thing finished so that I can get my life back!!

Why do the weirdos on the bus always sit down next to me????!

I believe it's my round at the bar....only 5.45am? Stuff it, early doors all round.

Chris.

On a lighter note.....you said Dong!

 

[Rockingit]

Ding dong!!

A brief update: I'm not at liberty to share on here (at the moment) but suffice to say that I had an EXTREMELY useful couple of hours with the client and a bottle of wine on Saturday afternoon, and whilst the next few days may get worse before it gets better, I'm feeling much happier about the overall big picture.

 

[supasparxs]

Ding dong!!

A brief update: I'm not at liberty to share on here (at the moment) but suffice to say that I had an EXTREMELY useful couple of hours with the client and a bottle of wine on Saturday afternoon, and whilst the next few days may get worse before it gets better, I'm feeling much happier about the overall big picture.

nice one mate,

when you can, keep us updated

these guys think they know it all but they tend to be ......