Install LV Network Switch and Patch panel in outdoor non IP rated enclosure

[Deano72]

Grateful for a kick in the right direction on the following: a telecomms engineer stated out that an outdoor metal cabinet (earthed & bonded) was an unsuitable enclosure for a network switch and patch panel to be installed into, as it was not IP rated.

As it happened, the size of the cabinet was too shallow for the kit anyway and the install could not go ahead. The client laid out quite a few grand to get some alterative cabinets procured and installed that were IP rated (and big enough) in order to meet an important deadline.

Basically an arguement is now kicking off about whether a larger version of the original intended cabinet is suitable or not. The reason the cabinet fails IP rating is because the base is open and sits on a concrete platform, with a core hole through the base of that to fresh air.

I don't think rain ingress is likely looking at the cabinet (although theoretically possible). Much more likely is condensation inside when the weather turns as the LV network switch will genarate warmth/heat.

Anyway with the background of out the way i would like to ask if the telecomms engineer is correct? I get that it is best practise etc to install into an IP rated enclosure, but is this an actual black and white regulation? and if so does anyone know what that reg. is? The client has been installing to similar non IP rated enclosures on other jobs so this is now turning into a p!ssing contest on Site and i would be very grateful if one of you learned sparks could settle the dispute.

Thanks in advance

Deano

 

[James]

Sounds like your cabinet might pass to IP44
what IP rating is the other engineer suggesting is required?

All You Need to Know About IP Ratings - Advice Centre

Take a look at our IP ratings guide, an invaluable resource if you're unsure what level of ingress protection your bathroom or outdoor heater will need.

heatingpoint.com

 

[Deano72]

Sounds like your cabinet might pass to IP44
what IP rating is the other engineer suggesting is required?

All You Need to Know About IP Ratings - Advice Centre

Take a look at our IP ratings guide, an invaluable resource if you're unsure what level of ingress protection your bathroom or outdoor heater will need.

heatingpoint.com

I contacted the manufactuer of the cabinet, they kept it simple and said our cab is not IP rated as there is a hole in it at the bottom. I pressed them further and suggested we seal the edges of the base and close the core hole and they declined to elaborate or speculate and repeated the statement that the cab is not IP rated when shipped.

The engineer simply stated the intended installation enclosure should be at least minimum IP rating

 

[snowhead]

Why core holes open to fresh air?
Does this concrete base stand up off the ground?
Do cables enter through the hole?
Is the hole for ventillation?
Does the cabinet have vents on the sides?

There are millions of ground mounted cabinets with no base, mounted on concrete plinths with ducting or chambers below for Telecoms / CATV / Street lighting / Pumps etc

 

[Deano72]

Why core holes open to fresh air?
Does this concrete base stand up off the ground?
Do cables enter through the hole?
Is the hole for ventillation?
Does the cabinet have vents on the sides?

There are millions of ground mounted cabinets with no base, mounted on concrete plinths with ducting or chambers below for Telecoms / CATV / Street lighting / Pumps etc

core hole to fresh air as in train station platform with inaccessible (to the public) void underneath. dust, dirt, insect, cold air ingress inevitable.

The cabinet touches down to the platform, does not stand above it.

The cabinet/platform base core hole is not for anything other than cable entry. The hole is about six inches diameter, 5% of available space used, maximum, for cables.

Yes cables enter through that hole. with large spare capacity. too much really.

The cab has no holes in the sides.

 

[James]

London Underground have different requirements for most electrical systems, but I am not aware of any specific issues outside of there.

 

[UNG]

Can you not fit a cable transit in the cored hole

Roxtec R UG™ frame | Roxtec UK & Ireland

The Roxtec R UG™ is a frame that allows for a mix of cables and pipes from 4 to 52mm in the same opening.

www.roxtec.com

Sealing components | Roxtec UK & Ireland

 

[Deano72]

regardless of potential work arounds i could do with knowing if there is a building reg or IEEE reg that clearly states thou shalt not install electrical equipment in non IP rated enclosures...

 

[UNG]

Grateful for a kick in the right direction on the following: a telecomms engineer stated out that an outdoor metal cabinet (earthed & bonded) was an unsuitable enclosure for a network switch and patch panel to be installed into, as it was not IP rated.

So what IP rating is expected / specified?

As it happened, the size of the cabinet was too shallow for the kit anyway and the install could not go ahead. The client laid out quite a few grand to get some alterative cabinets procured and installed that were IP rated (and big enough) in order to meet an important deadline.

So the client has purchased IP rated cabinets with what IP rating?

Basically an arguement is now kicking off about whether a larger version of the original intended cabinet is suitable or not. The reason the cabinet fails IP rating is because the base is open and sits on a concrete platform, with a core hole through the base of that to fresh air.

Apart from the hole cored through the platform what other part of the base is open

I don't think rain ingress is likely looking at the cabinet (although theoretically possible). Much more likely is condensation inside when the weather turns as the LV network switch will genarate warmth/heat.

It is very easy to guess and assume possible outcomes, I can never recall condensation being a problem in an outdoor enclosure containing equipment that produces a lot of heat, you are more likely to have problems of kit overheating from a lack of ventilation

Anyway with the background of out the way i would like to ask if the telecomms engineer is correct? I get that it is best practise etc to install into an IP rated enclosure, but is this an actual black and white regulation? and if so does anyone know what that reg. is?

Every enclosure has an IP rating even a consumer unit has one, without knowing what IP rating the job spec calls for it is difficult to comment

The client has been installing to similar non IP rated enclosures on other jobs so this is now turning into a p!ssing contest on Site and i would be very grateful if one of you learned sparks could settle the dispute.

So one minute you are telling us that the client procured IP rated cabinets and now you are telling us he has used "similar" non IP rated cabinets on other jobs. Have all these jobs been for the same customer as I can see an even bigger argument brewing if cheaper cabinets of a lesser IP than specced have been used on these jobs

I contacted the manufactuer of the cabinet, they kept it simple and said our cab is not IP rated as there is a hole in it at the bottom. I pressed them further and suggested we seal the edges of the base and close the core hole and they declined to elaborate or speculate and repeated the statement that the cab is not IP rated when shipped.

It must have some IP rating even IPXX

The engineer simply stated the intended installation enclosure should be at least minimum IP rating

So the cabinet has a minimum IP rating what is the minimum IP rating required by the engineer

core hole to fresh air as in train station platform with inaccessible (to the public) void underneath. dust, dirt, insect, cold air ingress inevitable.

So whose design / installation method is this

The cabinet touches down to the platform, does not stand above it.

Does this cabinet not have a plinth to raise it off the ground

The cabinet/platform base core hole is not for anything other than cable entry. The hole is about six inches diameter, 5% of available space used, maximum, for cables.

Yes cables enter through that hole. with large spare capacity. too much really.

The cab has no holes in the sides.

So a Roxtec or similar cable transit will close the hole and also seal the cables using the appropriate cable blocks

regardless of potential work arounds i could do with knowing if there is a building reg or IEEE reg that clearly states thou shalt not install electrical equipment in non IP rated enclosures...

There are regs regarding IP ratings but you have not indicated what the expected or specified IP rating is in the job spec

 

[davesparks]

regardless of potential work arounds i could do with knowing if there is a building reg or IEEE reg that clearly states thou shalt not install electrical equipment in non IP rated enclosures...

There's common sense for a start, if it is going to be exposed to the weather then it needs to be weatherproof.

The IET regulations require equipment to be suitable for where it is installed, so again, if it is exposed to the weather it should be weatherproof.

 

[Deano72]

So what IP rating is expected / specified? - No IP rating is specified by the design.

So the client has purchased IP rated cabinets with what IP rating? - The client purchased cabinets that are not IP rated which is why the issue was raised.

Apart from the hole cored through the platform what other part of the base is open - There is a hole in the side towards the top, that a bolt enters through. Water ingress unlikely, but theoretically possible.

It is very easy to guess and assume possible outcomes, I can never recall condensation being a problem in an outdoor enclosure containing equipment that produces a lot of heat, you are more likely to have problems of kit overheating from a lack of ventilation - overheating also possible, primary concern is cold air touching a warm surface and dew forming. People get it in their houses where the wall is cold and the room is warm, black mould can form in poorly ventilated corners, it does happen.

Every enclosure has an IP rating even a consumer unit has one, without knowing what IP rating the job spec calls for it is difficult to comment. The job does not call for an IP rating. The client has decided the enclosure, although not IP rated, is fit for purpose. It has a good door seal and they've installed similar elsewhere 'with no problems' i'm told.

So one minute you are telling us that the client procured IP rated cabinets and now you are telling us he has used "similar" non IP rated cabinets on other jobs. Have all these jobs been for the same customer as I can see an even bigger argument brewing if cheaper cabinets of a lesser IP than specced have been used on these jobs - No this is a miscommunication / misunderstanding, the cabinets do not ship as IP rated but do seem quite rainproof.

It must have some IP rating even IPXX - You would think, but i contacted the manufacturer and they confirmed they are not IP rated due to the open base.

So the cabinet has a minimum IP rating what is the minimum IP rating required by the engineer - zero IP rating on the cabinet, any kind of IP rating recommended by the engineer.

So whose design / installation method is this - the client insisted the design house specify this particular cabinet, don't really want to give names.

Does this cabinet not have a plinth to raise it off the ground - no, straight onto smooth concrete

So a Roxtec or similar cable transit will close the hole and also seal the cables using the appropriate cable blocks - I was advised today that they are going to seal the core hole, which will help a lot and give it some kind of functional equivalent of an IP rating, but it will still not be an officially IP rated enclosure.

There are regs regarding IP ratings but you have not indicated what the expected or specified IP rating is in the job spec - minimum IP rating will suffice.

Not sure how to carve up the coloured sections but have added my responses above, thanks for your input

 

[UNG]

So what IP rating is expected / specified?

No IP rating is specified by the design.
So what requirements were specified for the cabinet construction

So the client has purchased IP rated cabinets with what IP rating?

The client purchased cabinets that are not IP rated which is why the issue was raised.
I'm really not understanding how this job has been specced and equipment procured then a third party won't install equipment because the enclosure has no IP rating

Apart from the hole cored through the platform what other part of the base is open -

There is a hole in the side towards the top, that a bolt enters through. Water ingress unlikely, but theoretically possible.
There are plenty of sealants available that would seal a bolt in situ even some rubber washers would do

It is very easy to guess and assume possible outcomes, I can never recall condensation being a problem in an outdoor enclosure containing equipment that produces a lot of heat, you are more likely to have problems of kit overheating from a lack of ventilation

overheating also possible, primary concern is cold air touching a warm surface and dew forming. People get it in their houses where the wall is cold and the room is warm, black mould can form in poorly ventilated corners, it does happen.
I would assume if the equipment being installed produces heat then it has fans so the likelyhood of cold spots in the cabinet are unlikely

Every enclosure has an IP rating even a consumer unit has one, without knowing what IP rating the job spec calls for it is difficult to comment.

The job does not call for an IP rating. The client has decided the enclosure, although not IP rated, is fit for purpose. It has a good door seal and they've installed similar elsewhere 'with no problems' i'm told.
Is the client the end user here as this is starting to sound like the job is being done on the cheap to maximise the profit for the main contractor

So one minute you are telling us that the client procured IP rated cabinets and now you are telling us he has used "similar" non IP rated cabinets on other jobs. Have all these jobs been for the same customer as I can see an even bigger argument brewing if cheaper cabinets of a lesser IP than specced have been used on these jobs

No this is a miscommunication / misunderstanding, the cabinets do not ship as IP rated but do seem quite rainproof.
This sounds like some cheap and nasty cabinets have been procured rainproof is one thing but what about a decent storm or someone pressure washing the platform

It must have some IP rating even IPXX

You would think, but i contacted the manufacturer and they confirmed they are not IP rated due to the open base.
Something isn't sounding right here you have an enclosure manufacturer who appears to not understand the full range of IP ratings the enclosure could be full of tiny holes and have an IP00 rating, it still has an IP rating all be it useless when it rains

So the cabinet has a minimum IP rating what is the minimum IP rating required by the engineer

zero IP rating on the cabinet, any kind of IP rating recommended by the engineer.
So will IP00 or IPXX meet the engineers requirements

So whose design / installation method is this

the client insisted the design house specify this particular cabinet, don't really want to give names
So why has the design house told the client that the cabinets are not fit for purpose

Does this cabinet not have a plinth to raise it off the ground

no, straight onto smooth concrete
This thread is starting to look like a wind up when the parties concerned can't spec a cabinet that is fit for purpose

So a Roxtec or similar cable transit will close the hole and also seal the cables using the appropriate cable blocks

I was advised today that they are going to seal the core hole, which will help a lot and give it some kind of functional equivalent of an IP rating, but it will still not be an officially IP rated enclosure.
So how are they intending to seal the hole

There are regs regarding IP ratings but you have not indicated what the expected or specified IP rating is in the job spec

minimum IP rating will suffice.
You keep referring to minimum IP so here is an IP ratings guide what minimum IP are you looking for

Not sure how to carve up the coloured sections but have added my responses above, thanks for your input

I've carved it all up and responded to your replies in blue

 

[DPG]

This is the problem when someone thinks 'IP rated' means waterproof.

 

[UNG]

This is the problem when someone thinks 'IP rated' means waterproof.

It is one of those areas that easily misleads people when "it needs to be IP rated" without elaborating on the further the definition needed using the numeric coding to decide how dust and water resistant it needs to be

When talking to people about IP rating an example I often use are a sieve or colander, they have varying IP ratings depending on the size of the holes in them so what you are rinsing or straining doesn't fall through

 

[Deano72]

No IP rating is specified by the design.
So what requirements were specified for the cabinet construction

The client purchased cabinets that are not IP rated which is why the issue was raised.
I'm really not understanding how this job has been specced and equipment procured then a third party won't install equipment because the enclosure has no IP rating

There is a hole in the side towards the top, that a bolt enters through. Water ingress unlikely, but theoretically possible.
There are plenty of sealants available that would seal a bolt in situ even some rubber washers would do

overheating also possible, primary concern is cold air touching a warm surface and dew forming. People get it in their houses where the wall is cold and the room is warm, black mould can form in poorly ventilated corners, it does happen.
I would assume if the equipment being installed produces heat then it has fans so the likelyhood of cold spots in the cabinet are unlikely

The job does not call for an IP rating. The client has decided the enclosure, although not IP rated, is fit for purpose. It has a good door seal and they've installed similar elsewhere 'with no problems' i'm told.
Is the client the end user here as this is starting to sound like the job is being done on the cheap to maximise the profit for the main contractor

No this is a miscommunication / misunderstanding, the cabinets do not ship as IP rated but do seem quite rainproof.
This sounds like some cheap and nasty cabinets have been procured rainproof is one thing but what about a decent storm or someone pressure washing the platform

You would think, but i contacted the manufacturer and they confirmed they are not IP rated due to the open base.
Something isn't sounding right here you have an enclosure manufacturer who appears to not understand the full range of IP ratings the enclosure could be full of tiny holes and have an IP00 rating, it still has an IP rating all be it useless when it rains

zero IP rating on the cabinet, any kind of IP rating recommended by the engineer.
So will IP00 or IPXX meet the engineers requirements

the client insisted the design house specify this particular cabinet, don't really want to give names
So why has the design house told the client that the cabinets are not fit for purpose

no, straight onto smooth concrete
This thread is starting to look like a wind up when the parties concerned can't spec a cabinet that is fit for purpose

I was advised today that they are going to seal the core hole, which will help a lot and give it some kind of functional equivalent of an IP rating, but it will still not be an officially IP rated enclosure.
So how are they intending to seal the hole

minimum IP rating will suffice.
You keep referring to minimum IP so here is an IP ratings guide what minimum IP are you looking for

I've carved it all up and responded to your replies in blue

Pic on the left is the cabinet in question, with tilt down post fitted. Pic on the right is cabinet before tilt down post is fitted. circular hole is where a bolt enters and exits which can be locked inside the cabinet to stop unauthorised tilting of the pole.

The engineer expected to see an IP rated cabinet inside this to fit an internal use type non-ruggedised network switch and patch panel into.

In other words, regardless of what the design specified, is there a regulation that governs what is a suitable enclosure for fitting sensitive electrical equipment into, or does an engineer follow a design unquestioningly. Designs aren't always correct.

 

[UNG]

So now 15 posts into this thread it is not just a cabinet we now find out it has an attached pole which now makes a bit more sense with regard to the IP rating issues

So now you need an IP rated enclosure or enclosures that will fit into the base cabinet and will take the equipment that is being installed quite a simple fix really that I did many times when I was installing data radio kit some years ago

 

[Deano72]

So now 15 posts into this thread it is not just a cabinet we now find out it has an attached pole which now makes a bit more sense with regard to the IP rating issues

So now you need an IP rated enclosure or enclosures that will fit into the base cabinet and will take the equipment that is being installed quite a simple fix really that I did many times when I was installing data radio kit some years ago

Except the client is insistent it does not need an IP enclosure inside the metal cabinet, they insist it is fine as it is and to just go ahead and install, we will be instructed to install to the cabinet. So yes 16 posts on and some pictures the question remains the same, are they in breach of a regulation by deciding to not use a proper IP rated cabinet? Feel free to say you don't know, if you don't know.

 

[DPG]

Except the client is insistent it does not need an IP enclosure inside the metal cabinet, they insist it is fine as it is and to just go ahead and install, we will be instructed to install to the cabinet. So yes 16 posts on and some pictures the question remains the same, are they in breach of a regulation by deciding to not use a proper IP rated cabinet? Feel free to say you don't know, if you don't know.

I wouldn't be happy unless an IP enclosure was used. You probably won't find a specific regulation, other than workmanship/good practice or however it's worded.

Can't be much additional cost surely.

 

[Deano72]

I wouldn't be happy unless an IP enclosure was used. You probably won't find a specific regulation, other than workmanship/good practice or however it's worded.

Can't be much additional cost surely.

I think you've mirrored what the installer said, i was hoping to find a reg. that clarifies matters over and above best practise in case there is a risk of electrocution to the public. As the cabinet is very small for the intended equipment, either they will specify a smaller switch or a larger cabinet but the project is back to the same issue of breaching best practise at the very least, or health and safety at worst. Unles i can quote a specific regulation, i can only provide a warning that is 'may' not be suitable.

 

[DPG]

I think you've mirrored what the installer said, i was hoping to find a reg. that clarifies matters over and above best practise in case there is a risk of electrocution to the public. As the cabinet is very small for the intended equipment, either they will specify a smaller switch or a larger cabinet but the project is back to the same issue of breaching best practise at the very least, or health and safety at worst. Unles i can quote a specific regulation, i can only provide a warning that is 'may' not be suitable.

I really can't see how you would get such a specific reg to match your situation though.