L-N reverse closed

[Delboybully]

The thread i started has been closed so i had to start a new one to respond

To D80, i dont use a voltstick to prove a circuit is dead, i have just got into the habit of using it before i test for dead

To Dpelectricalltd, I shall stick around even though i know how much some of the posters on here love bashing us Electrical Trainee's, time will tell how much bashing i get

After phoning the DNO i did try the suppliers customer service number. It was closed. The DNO did give me 3 other numbers to call of which 2 were answer phone (closed) and one was non existant. The customer then said they had some paperwork 'somewhere' that they thought had some emergency numbers on and after waiting for 25mins, they hadnt found it, that was when i left. Before leaving I told them the best thing to do is to turn everything off, to which they replied that they cant live without electricity over the weekend and it has been ok since the meter has been installed (i did make them aware of how bad the situation is). So my next piece of advice was to unplug anything they are not using.

I phoned them today and they said they couldnt find the paperwork or anything on the internet so its round there i go tomorrow.

I feel i had a real tough decision to make. In trouble if i broke the seal, in trouble if i didint. Remember the training course told me in no uncertain terms, 'never touch the seal on the meter'. They told us they the supplier companies threaten to sue, £5k fines etc'. I also phoned 2 electricians i know. The first one is a Electrical Trainee with 2 years experience. He also said dont touch the seals and try to get either the DNO or suppler to come and fix it ASAP. The other is a time served 'proper' sparky. He said he would advice the customer to get the DNO/supplier to fix the problem, he said to me to not touch the seals or i could be in big trouble. So I now had 2 opinions that agreed with what i had been taught, dont touch the meter seals.

From reading the replies to my other post I am can see that i didnt do anything legally wrong in not cutting the seals, but i am worried that I should of cut them to fix them from a moral point of view. Interestingly due to the route of the tails, a photo wouldnt of easily proved they are incorrectly wired, so i also had to take into account that by not cutting the seals there is proof the meter installer screwed up and hopefully will be sacked.

I am going to phone my part p scheme provider tomorrow to see what they say i should of done

I will update tomorrow on what happens!

 

[sedgy34]

i carried on your thread switch to the metering guys thread

 

[telectrix]

The thread i started has been closed so i had to start a new one to respond

To D80, i dont use a voltstick to prove a circuit is dead, i have just got into the habit of using it before i test for dead

To Dpelectricalltd, I shall stick around even though i know how much some of the posters on here love bashing us Electrical Trainee's, time will tell how much bashing i get

After phoning the DNO i did try the suppliers customer service number. It was closed. The DNO did give me 3 other numbers to call of which 2 were answer phone (closed) and one was non existant. The customer then said they had some paperwork 'somewhere' that they thought had some emergency numbers on and after waiting for 25mins, they hadnt found it, that was when i left. Before leaving I told them the best thing to do is to turn everything off, to which they replied that they cant live without electricity over the weekend and it has been ok since the meter has been installed (i did make them aware of how bad the situation is). So my next piece of advice was to unplug anything they are not using.

I phoned them today and they said they couldnt find the paperwork or anything on the internet so its round there i go tomorrow.

I feel i had a real tough decision to make. In trouble if i broke the seal, in trouble if i didint. Remember the training course told me in no uncertain terms, 'never touch the seal on the meter'. They told us they the supplier companies threaten to sue, £5k fines etc'. I also phoned 2 electricians i know. The first one is a Electrical Trainee with 2 years experience. He also said dont touch the seals and try to get either the DNO or suppler to come and fix it ASAP. The other is a time served 'proper' sparky. He said he would advice the customer to get the DNO/supplier to fix the problem, he said to me to not touch the seals or i could be in big trouble. So I now had 2 opinions that agreed with what i had been taught, dont touch the meter seals.

From reading the replies to my other post I am can see that i didnt do anything legally wrong in not cutting the seals, but i am worried that I should of cut them to fix them from a moral point of view. Interestingly due to the route of the tails, a photo wouldnt of easily proved they are incorrectly wired, so i also had to take into account that by not cutting the seals there is proof the meter installer screwed up and hopefully will be sacked.

I am going to phone my part p scheme provider tomorrow to see what they say i should of done

I will update tomorrow on what happens!

as i said in a previous post, you had a difficult decision. from what i have read, you did as much as you could legally do. this whole business of DNO/supplier being the only persons legally allowed to cut seals needs addressing, along with fitting isolators and/or meters with the outgoing terminals accessible to us mortals.

 

[RISElectrical]

I read on here recently that some suppliers allow registered electricians to cut the seals if needed?

 

[londonlec]

Whatever you had done some people on here would have moaned anyway.

Not sure what else you could have done tbh.

Not sure if I would have cut seals and corrected it personally.
I used to work on a metering contract and every meter that gets installed gets a picture uploaded.

 

[mark ju]

Many years ago on new build work, the electricity board used to have meter fitters ( remember them) who would have a look around the property, IR and then connect the tails into their meter and seal it.
Just like Delboybully, I had always been told not to tamper with the seals. That was until one of these fitters told me that if needed cut the seals and be damned (his words). He was of the opinion that the board or DNO or whatever you wish to call them are perfectly understanding when it comes to this and would rather an electrician cut the seals to do work than risk working unsafely ( or leaving, as in this case, an unsafe condition)
Since then, if circumstances demand it, those seals come off! This is a practice that many of my workmates also follow.

 

[Strima]

I read on here recently that some suppliers allow registered electricians to cut the seals if needed?

IIRC UK Power allow sparkies to register with them to allow seals to be removed and refitted on a notification basis. Must be part of a competent persons scam and seals are replaced on a one-for-one basis.

 

[wacko]

A few weeks back I asked a Scottish Power fitter how much they would charge to fit an isolator. He didn't know the price but gave me an isolator.

"What about the seals?" I asked. "I just use snips," he told me!

 

[Amp David]

I read on here recently that some suppliers allow registered electricians to cut the seals if needed?

Think it was SSE and the ECA/Elecsa

 

[Amp David]

A few weeks back I asked a Scottish Power fitter how much they would charge to fit an isolator. He didn't know the price but gave me an isolator.

"What about the seals?" I asked. "I just use snips," he told me!

Had the same response from the DNO.

Got them out to sort a bad earth at a property. I said in passing to the engineer that the seals were already cut and TBH honest he didn't even care. Just said that you can'tbe expected to work live if working on the tails.

When he had left, no seal on fuse, just shows how much the guys on the tools actually care.

One last thing, if the service head belongs to the DNO, the why does the suppliers meter fitter hammer the service head with 'DO NOT REOMOVE' tape, when its not theirs??

 

[AP Electrical]

Out of intrested does anyone reseal the carrier ?, personnely any I find "missing" I replace.

 

[robsparky1975]

The question is what would be better the possibilty of someone coming to harm from the result of reverse polarity or someones seals being removed to prevent such a hazard and correcting the issues after exhausting all the possible avenues to contact the supplier,common sense should prevail in the end.

 

[Amp David]

Out of intrested does anyone reseal the carrier ?, personnely any I find "missing" I replace.

Yes I do. Got the seals from ebay, but have a die for my crimper with a middle finger on it LOL

 

[DurhamSparky]

i seal mine with a love and a kiss then stick a MR ELECTRIC label over the carrier!!

 

[Amp David]

Bonus!

 

[BillyTheSparks]

Could you not reverse the tails in the cu so as to correct the reverse polarity for the short term and swap them back when the DNO are there??

I haven't seen the original post from the original thread so if I have just repeated something or am missing the point I appologuise in advance

 

[DurhamSparky]

what you are suggesting is dangerous!!!

working live is against all things HSE preech about!

 

[Goody]

Builders break seal all the time when they replace CU's and they never get caught or sued.

 

[sedgy34]

Sorry I think I would have pulled the main fuse and rectified the problem

 

[Darkwood]

Il repost my opinions and experience from a legal point, if the premises is in danger or persons on the premises and you have no means to rectify the danger other than to cut the seals and remove the fuse then you can do so, this will only arise in situations where main switch is shorting, tails are exposed and dangerous, water is causing dist'board problems and safer not to touch it etc etc, with regards to reversed polarity as mentioned in a few threads it isnt an excuse to cut the seals as the double pole customer main switch will make it safe and if needed the DNO can be called out to rectify it, ive cut the seals 3 times and got DNO in and everytime they questioned me fully but accepted i did the right course of action, so to re-iterate if turning the power off by the main switch will stop any hazard you are dealingwith then you have no legal ground to break the seals.

 

[Plonker 3]

Was talking to a meter fitter a couple of weeks ago regarding cutting seals, he said all they do is reseal if they find them missing as they have no way of proving who cut them. He had never heard of anyone being prosecuted for just cutting the seals, finding the meter by passed is another thing altogether though.

 

[Darkwood]

With the rise of smart metering and online monitoring of use its now getting to stage where legal prosecution becomes plausible, the excuse it was already cut wont work anymore, if power is lost to meter and their is no local power issues then they have a time date etc fuse was removed all they need now is a house owner saying electrician has just replaced fuseboard and a related invoice and you have enough evidence, in the past it couldn't be known when the fuse was pulled, but now it can.

 

[Amp David]

I have a new CU to fit tomorrow and they were having the new meter fitted today. I hope that they've checked their polarity is correct.

Wonder if they'll of fitted an isolator?

 

[Delboybully]

Here is the update. We phoned the supplier who then arranged an emergency call out. Guess who they the sent- the DNO. The guys swapped the tails over in the head job done. The customer then phoned to complain about the situation and they said she should of phoned on saturday when it was first noticed. The customer told them we phoned the DNO first and they said in that case the DNO should of come out then.

So I should of been more forceful in insisting the DNO come out.

I also phoned my scheme provider in regard to whether i acted correctly. He said i was in a difficult situation and will be damned if i do and damned if i dont. He said as i hadnt actually done any work I hadnt done anything wrong, if fact i had done everything i could legally do. He did say i should of given the customer a potentially dangerous certificate though. I then asked about morally whether i could of done something and he again it a tough decision and each sparky needs to make a decision for each individual circumstance. He did say they can never recommend to a sparky to pull the main fuse. I was worried about cutting the seal on the meter, I wasnt worried about cutting the seal on the main fuse as they always seem to be missing when i go to do a CU change!!!

The set up was an unusual one. There is the head with the CU above it. To the left of this is a box with a door that opens inwards with the meter on the back of the door. When this door is closed the meter if facing the brick wall with a glass brick in it so the meter reader can see it from outside. There was no slack on the tails from the meter to the CU, I asked the scheme provider if i could put a henley block in between the head and meter and he told me this was a no no. Swapping the tails in CU would of proved extremely difficult due to there being no slack

Ok so i didnt do anything wrong but having said that if i find myself in this situtation again and the DNO wont come out them i am just going to tell them in that case i am going to swap them myself, and at the same time arrange for them to come out and reseal the head!

 

[mark ju]

what you are suggesting is dangerous!!!

working live is against all things HSE preech about!

Working live is dangerous, but...........
I know a great number of sparks who not only cut the seals but also remove the main fuse to work on cu changes, additonal cu's involving a service connecter etc. this does away with the need to work live!
And as for the HSE, they may like to preach about not working live and so on but sometimes its unavoidable, rectifing lighting circuit faults, central heating problems etc, the easiest way to fault find these sort of prioblems is to do it live.

 

[Delboybully]

I thought i would give you a quick update to what has been happening.

The billing company (SSE) have taken things very seriously. They are investigating and the meter fitter has been suspended. They told me he will either be sacked or sent for re training.

SSE are not happy that my first phone call to the DNO was met with a 'not our problem' and also that the customer couldnt find a emergency number for them. Also they should of come out to fix the problem themselves and not send the DNO to sort it

The DNO have been a nightmare. They logged the job as a missing neutral. Thats all they will tell SSE, they wont give them the job report. I have had to send a email to them to explain what i found and what i saw the DNO do. I have spent about 2 hours on this in phone calls and emails

The customer has had some problems with electrical equipment. The programmer on their (old) washing machine stopped working and there newish flat screen TV has some shading to one side. SSE have ask the customer to get these items looked at and have asked for my bill due to the problem

Overall from my view i can say the SSE have been good (they certainly havent tried to let the problem disappear), but the DNO (UK power netwroks) seem to be wanting nothing to do with the job (from what SSE have told me)

 

[Strima]

Looks like a result at last, let us know the full outcome.

 

[Knobhead]

I’m glad you’ve got it sorted and there are going to be repercussions with the meter fitters.

Yes I was one of those that criticised you, but we all have different views on legal and moral issues. I can understand your viewpoint due to your training. Time will bring with it experience.

At times real life and the law are poles apart, it’s a sad fact of life.