Need help with control panels.

[alanmcm]

Is there anything out there to help me get my head round control panels and control circuits. I was stuck at a job trying to get a metal barrel press to work automatically. Press start button, press comes down, squashes everything, pressure switch activates and it comes back up and hits the limit switch to stop the cycle. Best I could do was to have it working without even pressing a button but it would go up and down at will, unless the door was open, limit switch through the e-stop.

Had to leave as a manual job, hold start button in, install new limit switch at bottom of press so they cant hold the button in for the pressure to keep building. Then another button to bring the press up to hit the top limit switch and stop there. Pump would still run if holding the button in but if at either limit it wouldnt move, unless in the opposite direction.

Im sure this is a basic circuit with a relay but Ive never built a panel before and would like to learn a lot more. This hurt my head and frustrated me and I dont fancy going through it anymore, I need more knowledge.

Thanks

 

[westward10]

This is not the way to learn you could end up with a whole pile of grief were someone to get injured or killed through something you may have or not done.

 

[Pete999]

Is there anything out there to help me get my head round control panels and control circuits. I was stuck at a job trying to get a metal barrel press to work automatically. Press start button, press comes down, squashes everything, pressure switch activates and it comes back up and hits the limit switch to stop the cycle. Best I could do was to have it working without even pressing a button but it would go up and down at will, unless the door was open, limit switch through the e-stop.

Had to leave as a manual job, hold start button in, install new limit switch at bottom of press so they cant hold the button in for the pressure to keep building. Then another button to bring the press up to hit the top limit switch and stop there. Pump would still run if holding the button in but if at either limit it wouldnt move, unless in the opposite direction.

Im sure this is a basic circuit with a relay but Ive never built a panel before and would like to learn a lot more. This hurt my head and frustrated me and I dont fancy going through it anymore, I need more knowledge.

Thanks

Best option, get the maintenance Electrician involved to give yu some pointers, if there is one that is.

 

[telectrix]

asa bove .stay away unless or until you are totally competent with this sort of machinery., and the appropriate regulations and safety issues.

 

[Bobster]

You do realise you've just openly admitted on a forum to breaking statutory laws. Power presses not only fall under EN60204 but have their own very specific regulations.

I'd recommend you get a company in to correct your work and re certifie the machine before it hurts someone and you end up in court.

 

[davesparks]

The only way to learn is to work with someone who knows what they are doing for a number of years.

The regulations on this sort of thing are law, and what you have done here has quite possibly broken said law. If you're lucky you'll get a fine, if you're unlucky you'll end up in prison and have the death of a person on your conscience

 

[Bobster]

The only way to learn is to work with someone who knows what they are doing for a number of years.

The regulations on this sort of thing are law, and what you have done here has quite possibly broken said law. If you're lucky you'll get a fine, if you're unlucky you'll end up in prison and have the death of a person on your conscience

Nothing quite possible about it, from what he describes he definitely has.

 

[Pete999]

Nothing quite possible about it, from what he describes he definitely has.

The Firm's fault for letting the poor Guy work unsupervised, need their bottys smacked

 

[Bobster]

The Firm's fault for letting the poor Guy work unsupervised, need their bottys smacked

The firm will fall foul under PUWER and CE certifying the press.

His fault if anyone is hurt or killed and it will be him in court and prison if it does.

Not wanting to scare monger, just stating facts here as I and am sure everyone else doesn't want to see someone end up in prison or dead for a lack of knowledge.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/hsg236.pdf

Doesn't contain everything needed but will offer guidance in places to start looking.

 

[davesparks]

The Firm's fault for letting the poor Guy work unsupervised, need their bottys smacked

And it is also his fault for working unsupervised, health and safety is everyone's responsibility, both employer and employee.

 

[westward10]

Think you hit the wrong button there Pete.

 

[Pete999]

The firm will fall foul under PUWER and CE certifying the press.

His fault if anyone is hurt or killed and it will be him in court and prison if it does.

Not wanting to scare monger, just stating facts here as I and am sure everyone else doesn't want to see someone end up in prison or dead for a lack of knowledge.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/hsg236.pdf

Doesn't contain everything needed but will offer guidance in places to start looking.

I would have thought Rob that although Alan has worked on this equipment, rightly or wrongly the ultimate responsibility lies with the CEO of this firm, any death would be corporate Manslaughter,,Death and any injury would involve the HSE, and regardless of who said what the buck stops at the top of the management structure, or have the rules changed recently?

 

[Pete999]

Think you hit the wrong button there Pete.

Think you hit the wrong button there Pete.

Are you saying what I think you are saying

 

[davesparks]

I would have thought Rob that although Alan has worked on this equipment, rightly or wrongly the ultimate responsibility lies with the CEO of this firm, any death would be corporate Manslaughter,,Death and any injury would involve the HSE, and regardless of who said what the buck stops at the top of the management structure, or have the rules changed recently?

If the death occurs as a result of his actions then he will be prosecuted for it, his superiors will also be investigated and as you say will probably also be prosecuted if found to be at fault.
It is obvious from the opening post that he is fully aware that this is outside of his competence and that he has taken it upon himself to modify the controls of the machine. There is no mention of his superiors having instructed him to do anything, or even being aware that he was doing this job.
For all we know he could have been sent there to do an unrelated job but was asked to 'have a quick a look whilst you're here' by someone on site.

 

[Bobster]

I would have thought Rob that although Alan has worked on this equipment, rightly or wrongly the ultimate responsibility lies with the CEO of this firm, any death would be corporate Manslaughter,,Death and any injury would involve the HSE, and regardless of who said what the buck stops at the top of the management structure, or have the rules changed recently?

Rules haven't changed. Yes the CEO will likely be in court with him, and the company will likely face larger fines.

 

[Pete999]

If the death occurs as a result of his actions then he will be prosecuted for it, his superiors will also be investigated and as you say will probably also be prosecuted if found to be at fault.
It is obvious from the opening post that he is fully aware that this is outside of his competence and that he has taken it upon himself to modify the controls of the machine. There is no mention of his superiors having instructed him to do anything, or even being aware that he was doing this job.
For all we know he could have been sent there to do an unrelated job but was asked to 'have a quick a look whilst you're here' by someone on site.

Still the Firms fault for letting him near the machine, obviously there is a discrepancy in the firms maintenance procedure, the H&S Advisor is to blame as well, they should have a H&S policy in force, not having one is the ultimate fault of the Board of directors and who is Boss of that lot? the CEO, so ultimately He or She is to blame, yes Matey will get his --- kicked but any prosecution will be served on the firms hierarchy.

 

[Pete999]

Rules haven't changed. Yes the CEO will likely be in court with him, and the company will likely face larger fines.

Nothing likely about it Rob, his is the ultimate responsibility, that's why he is on mega bucks, to ensure his workforce is operating within the rules.

 

[Bobster]

Still the Firms fault for letting him near the machine, obviously there is a discrepancy in the firms maintenance procedure, the H&S Advisor is to blame as well, they should have a H&S policy in force, not having one is the ultimate fault of the Board of directors and who is Boss of that lot? the CEO, so ultimately He or She is to blame, yes Matey will get his --- kicked but any prosecution will be served on the firms hierarchy.

Prosecution will fall on the person modifying the machine and the company.

Unfortunately having been used as an investigator in a couple of court cases this is just how it works. The CEO is not meant to have all the technical knowledge to do every role in the company. Hence him employing competent persons. This will be what the company will be charged with.

 

[davesparks]

Still the Firms fault for letting him near the machine, obviously there is a discrepancy in the firms maintenance procedure, the H&S Advisor is to blame as well, they should have a H&S policy in force, not having one is the ultimate fault of the Board of directors and who is Boss of that lot? the CEO, so ultimately He or She is to blame, yes Matey will get his --- kicked but any prosecution will be served on the firms hierarchy.

I think we may be talking at crossed purposes here.
Im going on the assumption that the OP is working for a contractor and not directly for the company who own the press.

 

[Pete999]

Rules haven't changed. Yes the CEO will likely be in court with him, and the company will likely face larger fines.

Nothing likely about it Rob, his is the ultimate responsibility, that's why he is on mega bucks, to ensure his workforce is operating within the rules.

I think we may be talking at crossed purposes here.
Im going on the assumption that the OP is working for a contractor and not directly for the company who own the press.

Doesn't matter who he works for, once he is on site he must undergo an induction course, which will include H&S procedures, which ALL visiting contractors must adhere too.

 

[westward10]

When it comes to corporate manslaughter I think it does matter although there could be multiple factors in play.

 

[alanmcm]

Thanks for the replies, seem to have opened a can of worms. The press worked by pressing the start button and doing one cycle, changing it to a manual way of lowering and raising surely shouldnt make that much of a difference? Theres limit switches on the door, at top and bottom and also a pressure valve. If you let go of the button everything stops, all safety switches are in place as well. I work for a contractor and to get someone to sit with me to teach me is near impossible.

I was only trying to find ways of being able to learn more about things so I get a better understanding. Another guy helped me getting the press to work this way, all interlocks are in place, run lights, top and bottom limit switch light. If I have missed something could someone point it out so it can be rectified.

 

[alanmcm]

Best option, get the maintenance Electrician involved to give yu some pointers, if there is one that is.

Theres no maintenance spark on site. I did get help from another guy in work who works with panels. But we couldnt suss out how to get it working as a single cycle button press. More brain power needed, more knowledge needed on my part, hence why im enquiring here as to how others learned and what sources they used.

 

[Pete999]

Theres no maintenance spark on site. I did get help from another guy in work who works with panels. But we couldnt suss out how to get it working as a single cycle button press. More brain power needed, more knowledge needed on my part, hence why im enquiring here as to how others learned and what sources they used.

Hi Alan
With all due respect to you for wishing to learn and better yourself, the company you work for should not have let you loose on this machine unsupervised, training courses for these machines should have been made available to you.
I'm not personally experienced enough with manufacturing machinery to form an opinion on what and how to fix the faults liable to be found on these machines.
Others may have differing opinions, not really your fault but as a trainee, do you think it was right for you to go digging around in something you have admitted you know very little about? just glad that there were no injuries, don't know what the company manufactures, but not to have a maintenance Electrician on hand seems a bit remiss of the companies policy, good luck.

 

[Darkwood]

@alanmcm
Like has been mentioned, you are undertaking work that you are not competent to do, your willingness to learn commendable but this area of the industry is heavily regulated, a simple act of added to or changing the function of a machine/control requires a full risk assessment, what may seem trivial in alterations can have requirements that require new safety measures and systems to be put in place.
Even the simple addition of extra actuators like a few E-Stops to a simple DOL starter for a motor can require the whole control system to be redesigned so as to comply with the relevant standards.
The minute you enter a control board and make alterations and/or additions you take on board the responsibilities that said machine is safe to use, meets current regulations and has all the documentation and risk assessment that comes with the work you did, if you work for a company and you are been asked to do this then you must make it clear to them that you are not competent in this field and you have no qualifications to show you have had the training.
If you are ever in the unfortunate position to be pulled into interview due to an accident on a machine you worked on, you will be required to show your competence, show how the machine operates and how the safety features of the machine work in conjunction with the operator, if it is found the risk assessment falls short, the machine has been illegally upgraded or repaired then you will not have a leg to stand on legal action may be taken directly on yourself and/or the company you work for.

In the past the company I use to work for was caught up in such a scenario, we had to show how the safety system worked, what safety level it had been placed under and we also had to show them how why we thought the operator get injured also why and how the safety systems failed to prevent this... lucky for us we had complied and assessed the system correctly and we showed the operator had used ladders to climb over active safety barriers, opened a ducting panel using a tool and tried to unblock ducting while the machine was running, he failed to realise the fan blades spinning at 1500rpm may come in automatically! The said company was given a very large fine for not training it's operators properly and allowing routine breaches of safety, the point I am making here is you need to know your stuff from the the associated regulations, how to risk assess a machine and know what level of safety it will fall under before you even consider trying to work on it, the closest you may be able to go is to replace a like for like part due to failure where you have made absolutely no changes or additions and again if the machine is unsafe even ignorance can come back at you if anything were to occur.

 

[Darkwood]

Here is a free download, a sample of what is expected of machine safety and risk assessment, hopefully you will have time to browse it and realise why you may be digging yourself a hole you cannot get out of.
http://www.schneider-electric.co.uk...nt-manufacturers/pdf/Machine-safety-guide.pdf