NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC launches bursary to encourage female electricians into the industry

[johnduffell]

sorry realised I ignored most of your very good questions, here seem to be the fundamental ones which I find hardest to answer:

Why do you think an imbalance in genders in different job roles is a problem?

because firstly I think equality of opportunity is important. So everyone should be free to consider any job, even if they are the sort of person who doesn't stray far from society's expectations. Clearly you're not one who's been unduly influenced by these kinds of expectations, but many are if you see my previous post article about 6 year olds.
secondly I feel that having a more diverse selection of people offering services is good for the public. I have seen adverts locally for "lady decorator" and seen customer surveys saying people wish they could employ a female builder. So there's definitely demand, assuming that's a good thing? Basically if the people doing the work are representative of the customers, the workers are more likely to provide innovations that the customers need. That doesn't help the people with sight problems or dementia as much, but I do recognise this second point isn't a given for all underrepresented groups!

Why do you think the imbalance exists in the first place?

Extremely good question. I have no idea. In tech they make a deal about the fact that the first computer programmer was female, and programming used to be a job for ladies, but the same question applies there.

 

[SparkyChick]

When you mention it, everyone only thinks of the "health and safety gone mad" which is of course just ridiculous bureaucracy, doesn't save anyone anything and is just a waste of time and effort. Worse than that, it actually devalues any progress made in areas that actually matter.

And I myself have held that view on a number of subjects regarding Health and Safety, because it can be so... like being pulled up because I dared to take an open cup of coffee out of the tea room back to my desk. Should have had a lid on that! What would have happened if you bumped into someone?

Then there's stuff that's actually sensible that are common sense as long as someone's looking at the bigger picture. And that's the stuff people should focus on.

I think whether it's common sense or not depends on what you've been exposed to and what kind of damages you've done to yourself when you were growing up.

Kids today are glued to their tech and so many don't experience physical damage too often. And boys in particular are encouraged not to engage in the rough and tumble play that they used to indulge in.

I don't doubt that there are differences between men and women, in the same way I don't doubt that some industries are fundamentally more dangerous than others. Opinions on what the differences are vary, and I know you're supposed to start thinking about careers early, but my opinion is that 5 year olds shouldn't be stunned to meet a female surgeon or pilot. - Children are stunned to meet female firefighters, surgeons and RAF pilots | Daily Mail Online - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3606869/Children-stunned-meet-female-firefighters-surgeons-RAF-pilots-drawing-MEN-doing-jobs.html

Whilst I agree we should ideally tell kids they can be anything they want, we shouldn't ignore the statistical make up of the work force (and importantly... the reasons for it, which will typically be the traits required to do the job well).

Children should be encouraged to follow their dreams but their expectations should be managed regarding the likely success.

Having said that the problems have a worse impact in tech, the tech industry is full of startups solving the problems well off young people have (get your washing done and delivered back to your door, deliver food, etc) but the problems the older generation have are ignored because of the money thing. The amount tech could do for people with sight issues, hearing loss, dementia, etc is very high. Good luck getting people with dementia into engineering jobs.

People with dementia getting into engineering aside (it's never going to happen for obvious reasons), most tech companies do go where the money is, you're right. But who in business doesn't?

The problem with trying to address sensory decline is the complexity of the interface between human and machine. That's why there isn't that much progress. The kind of supporting hardware you need (functional MRI scanners and such like) is beyond a startup's reach. There are companies out there, but they are niche.

I intended this post to be simple, but I apologise for another troll post

It's not a troll post. This is a discussion. An adult exchange between two people with differing views.

 

[johnduffell]

Thanks you've certainly helped my understanding! I think I agree with you more than you'd perhaps think.

which will typically be the traits required to do the job well

I am not sure what they are. Maybe strength to lift some SWA cable which most teenagers probably don't have regardless of male or female. For software development I have more knowledge about traits, and in my experience, those traits required occur in both girls and boys but girls are not encouraged to develop their abilities there (girls are generally better at maths earlier in school so you'd expect them to be better)

most tech companies do go where the money is, you're right. But who in business doesn't?

I guess that's another way of saying capitalism is shyte because it values increase in GDP over helping people (but it seems to be the least worst option on the whole for enabling human development). Now I'm really trolling, that debate has never been resolved with a "right" answer!

Regarding the sensory decline thing, there are big problems with the health research not just in tech, due to the way drugs are funded, there's no money in producing a cure for anything, the money is for keeping people long term dependent. It's the drug dealer model!

Anyway let's just carry on and hope everything ends up well We're not all responsible for solving the world's problems, we just can do our bit if we like.

 

[telectrix]

you have to have an open mind on this issue. as far as i am concerned, mrs Tel can go and dig coal, pour molten metal in a foundry, excavate egyptian tombs,or whatever she wants, as long as my tea is on the table at 6 o'clock.

 

[JK-Electrical]

My washing machine broke down last week .....
..... her doctor has recommended that she see a therapist.

 

[Spoon]

My washing machine broke down last week .....
..... her doctor has recommended that she see a therapist.

If she's with you then she definitely needs a therapist.
I do most of the cooking and washing the dishes. I like it.

 

[telectrix]

If she's with you then she definitely needs a therapist.
I do most of the cooking and washing the dishes. I like it.

fine.but who washes the spoon?

 

[Spoon]

fine.but who washes the spoon?

Myself... no one else wants to touch the spoon...

 

[telectrix]

 

[SparkyChick]

here seem to be the fundamental ones which I find hardest to answer

The why's are always the hardest to answer and that's what makes the answers the most interesting.

because firstly I think equality of opportunity is important

Absolutely 100% agree with that. And if anyone can prove they have been denied a job because of their sex, they have a case for sexual discrimination.

This is why these initiatives are bad... we're sending mixed messages to men... "you shouldn't discriminate against women" whilst discriminatinged against them by giving women a leg up.

Clearly you're not one who's been unduly influenced by these kinds of expectations

It's not that I've not been influenced it's a case of kids aren't an option. I've never had to choose between family and career. Had I had to make that choice I suspect things would have been a bit different.

I agree though that it is surprising in this day and age kids are shocked by women being fire fighters etc. and I agree, that should be addressed.

And the right approach is to educate kids early on about this stuff, but we need to separate this from other parts of the social justice warrior agenda to be sure we stop their indoctrination in those areas (such as the transgender/non-binary BS).

secondly I feel that having a more diverse selection of people offering services is good for the public.

Yes it is good for the public and I know there is a demand for female tradies. Not just from women, but other vulnerable groups as well who may not feel comfortable with burly blokes in their house. I saw this as a market need and it is paying off.

Basically if the people doing the work are representative of the customers, the workers are more likely to provide innovations that the customers need.

I agree that for a target market, understanding that market and it's needs can help immensely when developing product, but in others the sex of the client is irrelevant. Civil engineering for example. The sex of the client is irrelevant (what would women want a bridge to do that men don't?).

But I do think this is a bit of a red herring because you can gain insight without employing anyone from your target market or having direct personal experience of it.

Extremely good question. I have no idea. In tech they make a deal about the fact that the first computer programmer was female, and programming used to be a job for ladies

Ada Lovelace and yes, some people make a deal about her, but personally the people I look up to in software engineering are all men because they dominate the fields that interest me (mainly game development).

You mention in your next post the fact that girls are good at maths early on and that this is a trait required for software engineering. Agreed. I'm good at maths. I was encouraged by my parents (as was my female cousin who also went on to be a software engineer). But it's not enough to be good at a trait or two.

To stay at the top takes dedication (long hours, the perpetual hamster wheel of new skills and so on) and for the most part it is a rather solitary pursuit. Yes there are teams but for the most part you're given a task and you get into your own head space to get it done. Take a look around a lot of software companies and nearly everyone is there with their headphones on. It's not a very social environment. These factors alone are for somewhat incompatible with traits common in women (you lot tell us we talk to much - yes, because we like to socialise and chat, and given a choice between work or family/friends we choose family/friends which means we're unlikely to be as dedicated as men as we prioritise out time differently). I could handle these issues early on, but as I've gotten older I've wanted to spend less time focusing on work and not be away from family and friends so much. Hence, my job and I were no longer compatible.

Once you start to look at jobs in this way it's quite easy to see why there is sexual inequity. Throw in the physical attributes that are ideally required and it rounds out the picture nicely.

With the current crop of feminists, in their distorted view, men and women are equal in every way and this is simply not the case. We never were, we never will be and we shouldn't try to achieve equity in every walk of life because it's detrimental to society and business. We're complimentary, we're designed to fulfil different roles and we should never lose sight of that.

You also need to consider the issue I've mentioned previously which is the frequency with which sexual harassment claims arise from women. This is bad for all women because it will create sexism. In the face of this potential threat, men will close ranks and when faced with a choice between hiring a women who presents a possible future problem (and I know not all women do) and hiring a man... they're going to pick the bloke.

That's not to say that just men are at risk from this type of woman. Long story short I nearly lost my career to a hard line feminist who accused me a physcially assaulting her. When it was clear that wasn't going to go her way she went on the sick with stress and tried to the sue the company.

Some of these people are dangerous schemers who won't think twice about trying to ruin someone if it benefits their agenda.

Fundamentally though everyone should have an equal shot, and I think for the most part these days, they do have that equal shot at the hiring decision.

But overall I think we should stop worrying about it, educate kids that they can do anything (within reason) and sit back and see what happens. There will always be anomalies like me and the other women who are in the trades, but we are just that... anomalies, and that's OK because most women are not cut out for this type of work, it's dirty, grimy, physically demanding, quite uncomfortable at times and there is great potential for broken finger nails, couple that with the plaster dust that dries your hair out on contact and well... you've got to be pretty crazy to do it in my opinion, but I love it

 

[telectrix]

The why's are always the hardest to answer and that's what makes the answers the most interesting.



Absolutely 100% agree with that. And if anyone can prove they have been denied a job because of their sex, they have a case for sexual discrimination.

This is why these initiatives are bad... we're sending mixed messages to men... "you shouldn't discriminate against women" whilst discriminatinged against them by giving women a leg up.



It's not that I've not been influenced it's a case of kids aren't an option. I've never had to choose between family and career. Had I had to make that choice I suspect things would have been a bit different.

I agree though that it is surprising in this day and age kids are shocked by women being fire fighters etc. and I agree, that should be addressed.

And the right approach is to educate kids early on about this stuff, but we need to separate this from other parts of the social justice warrior agenda to be sure we stop their indoctrination in those areas (such as the transgender/non-binary BS).



Yes it is good for the public and I know there is a demand for female tradies. Not just from women, but other vulnerable groups as well who may not feel comfortable with burly blokes in their house. I saw this as a market need and it is paying off.



I agree that for a target market, understanding that market and it's needs can help immensely when developing product, but in others the sex of the client is irrelevant. Civil engineering for example. The sex of the client is irrelevant (what would women want a bridge to do that men don't?).

But I do think this is a bit of a red herring because you can gain insight without employing anyone from your target market or having direct personal experience of it.



Ada Lovelace and yes, some people make a deal about her, but personally the people I look up to in software engineering are all men because they dominate the fields that interest me (mainly game development).

You mention in your next post the fact that girls are good at maths early on and that this is a trait required for software engineering. Agreed. I'm good at maths. I was encouraged by my parents (as was my female cousin who also went on to be a software engineer). But it's not enough to be good at a trait or two.

To stay at the top takes dedication (long hours, the perpetual hamster wheel of new skills and so on) and for the most part it is a rather solitary pursuit. Yes there are teams but for the most part you're given a task and you get into your own head space to get it done. Take a look around a lot of software companies and nearly everyone is there with their headphones on. It's not a very social environment. These factors alone are for somewhat incompatible with traits common in women (you lot tell us we talk to much - yes, because we like to socialise and chat, and given a choice between work or family/friends we choose family/friends which means we're unlikely to be as dedicated as men as we prioritise out time differently). I could handle these issues early on, but as I've gotten older I've wanted to spend less time focusing on work and not be away from family and friends so much. Hence, my job and I were no longer compatible.

Once you start to look at jobs in this way it's quite easy to see why there is sexual inequity. Throw in the physical attributes that are ideally required and it rounds out the picture nicely.

With the current crop of feminists, in their distorted view, men and women are equal in every way and this is simply not the case. We never were, we never will be and we shouldn't try to achieve equity in every walk of life because it's detrimental to society and business. We're complimentary, we're designed to fulfil different roles and we should never lose sight of that.

You also need to consider the issue I've mentioned previously which is the frequency with which sexual harassment claims arise from women. This is bad for all women because it will create sexism. In the face of this potential threat, men will close ranks and when faced with a choice between hiring a women who presents a possible future problem (and I know not all women do) and hiring a man... they're going to pick the bloke.

That's not to say that just men are at risk from this type of woman. Long story short I nearly lost my career to a hard line feminist who accused me a physcially assaulting her. When it was clear that wasn't going to go her way she went on the sick with stress and tried to the sue the company.

Some of these people are dangerous schemers who won't think twice about trying to ruin someone if it benefits their agenda.

Fundamentally though everyone should have an equal shot, and I think for the most part these days, they do have that equal shot at the hiring decision.

But overall I think we should stop worrying about it, educate kids that they can do anything (within reason) and sit back and see what happens. There will always be anomalies like me and the other women who are in the trades, but we are just that... anomalies, and that's OK because most women are not cut out for this type of work, it's dirty, grimy, physically demanding, quite uncomfortable at times and there is great potential for broken finger nails, couple that with the plaster dust that dries your hair out on contact and well... you've got to be pretty crazy to do it in my opinion, but I love it

nail on head there, esp. last paragraph. the majority of women would not consider working in that environment of broken fingernails and getting dusty and dirty. it's nothing to do with equality, it's to do with how we are made. i'm in my element up to the elbows in muck, oil, etc., but mrs tel makes me take me pants off before sitting on the sofa. all dates back years to cave dwelling. man hunts, woman cooks the catch. it's only in the last 60 years or so that women have needed to work in order to increase the family income and move up the ladder. most women would prefer to stay at home, looking after the domestic side of life, but those who prefer to go out and work, good luck to them.

 

[telectrix]

anyway, it's easter. eggs and bunnies.
here's some eggs:


and here's some bunnies:

 

[JK-Electrical]

Then there's other type of bunny girl .....

​

 

[Midwest]

I did note the Bursary is up to a maximum of £500, and if its anything like the response I got from Certsure last week at reducing my memberships fees, its unlikely those 'girls' are going to get anything more that a £50 M&S voucher (Certsure didn't even offer me that).

I think we should actively encourage more females into the industry, by whatever means possible, including this scheme. Then there would be somebody to make the tea at lunchtimes

 

[ipf]

[QUOTE="

I think we should actively encourage more females into the industry[/QUOTE]
If those six in tel's photo apply for a job, I might just take 'em up on it.

 

[Rpa07]

And you just undid 135 posts in one sentence! Ok, start again, ipf put his foot in it!

“If those six in tel's photo apply for a job, I might just take 'em up on it.”

 

[Rpa07]

And you just undid 135 posts in one sentence! Ok, start again, ipf put his foot in it!
[QUOTE="ipf, post: 1377620, member: 20676"
If those six in tel's photo apply for a job, I might just take 'em up on it./QUOTE]

 

[johnduffell]

I can't really find much I don't wholeheartedly agree with in your post.

To stay at the top takes dedication (long hours, the perpetual hamster wheel of new skills and so on) and for the most part it is a rather solitary pursuit. Yes there are teams but for the most part you're given a task and you get into your own head space to get it done. Take a look around a lot of software companies and nearly everyone is there with their headphones on. It's not a very social environment.

I'm not sure that's the case in my experience, if a place was like that I'd not stay there for long. I'm sure there are some who prefer that environment, and some companies do work that way, but it would exclude me from working there for long, or I'd go mad! I never wear head phones personally but I'd say probably 20% of my colleagues probably have them on at any one time.

educate kids that they can do anything (within reason) and sit back

This is the big question for me, how to educate. And how to know if it's worked and we've reached the "correct" level. And what the correct level is we should expect.

Thanks, you've given me a good perspective!All the best, John

 

[ipf]

And you just undid 135 posts in one sentence! Ok, start again, ipf put his foot in it!

“If those six in tel's photo apply for a job, I might just take 'em up on it.”

I never even considered my foot.

To make the whole thing simple:- Male or female......
If you can do a job you can do it.....if you can't, you can't, whether it be mentally, physically.......or sexually, if it comes to it.
Besides, it all depends on what you want to do, if able...not on what some know-all decides or presumes.

 

[telectrix]

I never even considered my foot.

To make the whole thing simple:- Male or female......
If you can do a job you can do it.....if you can't, you can't, whether it be mentally, physically.......or sexually, if it comes to it.
Besides, it all depends on what you want to do, if able...not on what some know-all decides or presumes.

my thoughts entirely. some ( male or female) are good at IT, figures, etc., and rubbish at practical, hands on the tools work. and vice versa. academic vs practical. where some are good at both. some are useless at both. sex of the person does not come into the equation except that generally, men are better with the heavier physical tasks. this is a fact of how we are made.