VIR cable...whats your thoughts??

[Jay Sparks]

Hi Guys & gals,

I would just like to pick your brains and hear your thoughts on this one!!

Ive read alot about the old "VIR" cable and that it should all be replaced straight away, as it will have probably gone past its sell by date!!!
Ive also read that you should NOT touch it or even move it in any way, as this could cause the insulation to just fall off!!

Now, Ive actually had a bad experience with this stuff when I was just looking into some trunking...it had a mix of pvc singles and this VIR cable. Now I didnt actually move the VIR, I just brushed aside some of the singles, with the back of my hand and I must of disturbed the VIR cable enough that a faulty piece of insulation came off and it shorted on the trunking/conduit (on the locking nut from the conduit, where it enters into the trunking). Any way this gave me a brown stain in my boxers and I imedeately told the owner to get an EICR done asap!!! I pulled the old porcelain fuse protecting the VIR cable and told him I could not leave it live.


So I would like to know what you guys would do, if you were doing an EICR and you came across VIR cable, knowing you shouldn't really touch it????
Would you not test it and code it anyway??
Would you disconnect the circuit and inform the customer that you cant test it and you cant leave it in service knowing it is past its best??
Would you test it as normal and IF it tests ok (doubt full but.....), would you connect it back up??

I'm asking because I was at a fault yesterday. It was a faulty light fitting, but the cable feeding it was VIR cable and I didn't feel comfortable connecting a new light fitting to it, so I run a new feed from a near by lighting circuit (t&e PVC). There were various other circuits wired in VIR cable and I've adivised the customer to get an EICR done asap but they have to convince the landlord first (commercial premises). I will hopefully be doing the EICR and just wanted your thoughts on how to proceed with this stuff?

Thanks

Jay

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Had similar experiences to you with it, so from then and now on, I will try my damnest not to interfere with it. If someone wants something disconnecting then a new thing connecting, well, I won't, because I know what will happen.

The thing is the bits undisturbed in lofts might still be okay; the bits by accessories are usually as much use as a chocolate teapot. So as a tack it's almost always going to need a rewire if not right now, then sometime very soon.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Had similar experiences to you with it, so from then and now on, I will try my damnest not to interfere with it. If someone wants something disconnecting then a new thing connecting, well, I won't, because I know what will happen.

The thing is the bits undisturbed in lofts might still be okay; the bits by accessories are usually as much use as a chocolate teapot. So as a tack it's almost always going to need a rewire if not right now, then sometime very soon.

Its not nice stuff is it??lol

But what if you was doing an EICR and you came across it?? Would you just not test it, or would you disconnect it and tell the customer you couldn't leave it in service, no matter what???


Jay

 

[telectrix]

if the insulation is crumbling, you need to advise customer. you have no legal right to disconnect unless customer agrees. if it's bad, issue a danger notice.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

No wouldn't do that unless it was fizzing and popping but if it was still doing the job would leave it energised..., always a tough call. At best you could turn off, take a picture of it switched off, write a letter & get them to countersign it, as we all know we have no power to disconnect peoples circuits if they don't want us to!!!

as said you could switch it off though.
Testing wise I'd not attempt to do much at all if I spotted it- every accessory would be a can if worms

 

[Jay Sparks]

if the insulation is crumbling, you need to advise customer. you have no legal right to disconnect unless customer agrees. if it's bad, issue a danger notice.

I get were your coming from tel but would you just not test a circuit that had this cable on it???
Would you put it as a LIM and give it a code, even though you havent tested it??

Ive never had the privilege of testing this stuff, If Ive come across it, I always get to rewire it....lol

I think I would just not test any circuit that had this stuff on and I would put LIM on the sheet and code it C2 if it looks ok and C1 if it looks crap or has exposed conductors.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I get were your coming from tel but would you just not test a circuit that had this cable on it???
Would you put it as a LIM and give it a code, even though you havent tested it??

Ive never had the privilege of testing this stuff, If Ive come across it, I always get to rewire it....lol

I think I would just not test any circuit that had this stuff on and I would put LIM on the sheet and code it C2 if it looks ok and C1 if it looks crap or has exposed conductors.

Yeah thats the trouble with it, it might IR okay but then if you touch it a big piece might fall off!!

 

[Octopus]

Well... when I do an EICR, the first thing I do is remove the cover of the CU and do a Ze.

If I see VIR, I may even stop immediately!

 

[Jay Sparks]

Yeah thats the trouble with it, it might IR okay but then if you touch it a big piece might fall off!!

This is why I was asking for other peoples opinions.
I haven't come across it that much and never had to do a test on it.....so was hoping someone with more experience than me could give me there views/opinions. As I said, I wouldn't even touch the stuff, it could broke down during inspection/testing and that would open a big can of worms!!!lol
I would always advise it being replaced asap though.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Well... when I do an EICR, the first thing I do is remove the cover of the CU and do a Ze.

If I see VIR, I may even stop immediately!

On the install Im talking about, the main switches and bd's dont seem to have the stuff in.....but there are some old porcelain fuses scattered about the building that are fed from said switch's/dbs. Then from these fuses, there's a few different sizes of VIR cable run in conduit. They are also fused on the neutral as well as the line.

 

[Engineer54]

It's horses for courses were braided VIR singles are concerned!! I've seen VIR cables in as near as good condition as when they were installed. I've also seen them crumbling away. A lot depends on the environmental conditions in which the old electrical installation is and has been working in, along with, if these circuits have been stressed with increasing loads over the years.

When i pulled out all the TRS wiring from my parents house during a rewire, the majority of the 7/029 T&E was in excellent condition, so i wired the garage with it, contained in steel trunking and conduit. Made some alterations to that installation some 12 years later and it was still in excellent condition. Probably still is to this day, unless a electrical trainee has had a pink fit and almost died in it, after having seen what he would have thought was TRS T&E with aluminium conductors because he doesn't know of, or seen, tinned copper conductors!! lol!!

 

[Jay Sparks]

It's horses for courses were braided VIR singles are concerned!! I've seen VIR cables in as near as good condition as when they were installed. I've also seen them crumbling away. A lot depends on the environmental conditions in which the old electrical installation is and has been working in, along with, if these circuits have been stressed with increasing loads over the years.

When i pulled out all the TRS wiring from my parents house during a rewire, the majority of the 7/029 T&E was in excellent condition, so i wired the garage with it, contained in steel trunking and conduit. Made some alterations to that installation some 12 years later and it was still in excellent condition. Probably still is to this day, unless a electrical trainee has had a pink fit and almost died in it, after having seen what he would have thought was TRS T&E with aluminium conductors because he doesn't know of, or seen, tinned copper conductors!! lol!!

So would you test this stuff if you come across it during an EICR???? Or would you make a decision based on the condition of the cable???

I know that if left, the cable can be ok along its run, but by at the accessories is where the damage can occur!! And if you disturb it at the accessory, then you become responsseble, at your own cost, to replace the damaged cable.

Big can of worms!!!lol

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hi Guys & gals,

I would just like to pick your brains and hear your thoughts on this one!!

Ive read alot about the old "VIR" cable and that it should all be replaced straight away, as it will have probably gone past its sell by date!!!
Ive also read that you should NOT touch it or even move it in any way, as this could cause the insulation to just fall off!!

Now, Ive actually had a bad experience with this stuff when I was just looking into some trunking...it had a mix of pvc singles and this VIR cable. Now I didnt actually move the VIR, I just brushed aside some of the singles, with the back of my hand and I must of disturbed the VIR cable enough that a faulty piece of insulation came off and it shorted on the trunking/conduit (on the locking nut from the conduit, where it enters into the trunking). Any way this gave me a brown stain in my boxers and I imedeately told the owner to get an EICR done asap!!! I pulled the old porcelain fuse protecting the VIR cable and told him I could not leave it live.


So I would like to know what you guys would do, if you were doing an EICR and you came across VIR cable, knowing you shouldn't really touch it????
Would you not test it and code it anyway??
Would you disconnect the circuit and inform the customer that you cant test it and you cant leave it in service knowing it is past its best??
Would you test it as normal and IF it tests ok (doubt full but.....), would you connect it back up??

I'm asking because I was at a fault yesterday. It was a faulty light fitting, but the cable feeding it was VIR cable and I didn't feel comfortable connecting a new light fitting to it, so I run a new feed from a near by lighting circuit (t&e PVC). There were various other circuits wired in VIR cable and I've adivised the customer to get an EICR done asap but they have to convince the landlord first (commercial premises). I will hopefully be doing the EICR and just wanted your thoughts on how to proceed with this stuff?

Thanks

Jay

theres much turd spouted on the subject of VIR...
the chances are that the affected insulation is at the ends (terminations)....get rid of all that....heat shrink the cores....
should squeeze a bit more life out of the old girl....
look, its a stop-gap measure....to be applied in situations where the client cant afford a rewire at the moment...so in the meantime....

 

[Jay Sparks]

theres much turd spouted on the subject of VIR...
the chances are that the affected insulation is at the ends (terminations)....get rid of all that....heat shrink the cores....
should squeeze a bit more life out of the old girl....
look, its a stop-gap measure....to be applied in situations where the client cant afford a rewire at the moment...so in the meantime....

Luckily, the fault I came across yesterday, the customer was happy for me to run a new feed from another lighting circuit....but I still wouldn't test a circuit if it was run in VIR, as I could be leaving it in a worse state than before I touched it...lol
And ya know what customers are like...."Well it was has been working ok for the last 30 odd years, so you must of broke it, so you must fix it!!!"lol

 

[SPARTYKUS]

theres much turd spouted on the subject of VIR...
the chances are that the affected insulation is at the ends (terminations)....get rid of all that....heat shrink the cores....
should squeeze a bit more life out of the old girl....
look, its a stop-gap measure....to be applied in situations where the client cant afford a rewire at the moment...so in the meantime....

exactly what I've had to do in the past.

 

[oldtimer]

Don't get caught in the Traffic Warden mentality when doing a EICR ie you have then pen the uniform the training and your going to dictate what happens if there is one thing you need to learn is that your are not BG you cannot walk in to a property condem it switch and lock off the supply and walk out the door just do your job and see if it passes the tests and yes by all means recommend but if you cross the line and say this needs replaced or else well thats fraud So remember test and put down Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory depending on the outcome of the test.

 

[Jay Sparks]

Don't get caught in the Traffic Warden mentality when doing a EICR ie you have then pen the uniform the training and your going to dictate what happens if there is one thing you need to learn is that your are not BG you cannot walk in to a property condem it switch and lock off the supply and walk out the door just do your job and see if it passes the tests and yes by all means recommend but if you cross the line and say this needs replaced or else well thats fraud So remember test and put down Satisfactory or Unsatisfactory depending on the outcome of the test.

I would never say something NEEDS replaceing without properly inspecting and testing it first!!!
I will always recommend something be done if I feel it neccassary. The question was really would you test it if you came across it?? I personally wouldn't and I would RECOMEND it be removed and rewired. But that is up to the customer.

 

[oldtimer]

Yep don't get caught out like the clown who told a landlord he had to have a RCD CU if renting a property Landlord got ALL of his money back ie cost of EICR, Cost of any repairs and cost of replacing the CU so yes recommend but don't get power crazy

 

[Engineer54]

I would never say something NEEDS replaceing without properly inspecting and testing it first!!!
I will always recommend something be done if I feel it neccassary. The question was really would you test it if you came across it?? I personally wouldn't and I would RECOMEND it be removed and rewired. But that is up to the customer.

Why wouldn't you test a VIR installation if your conducting a full EICR?? A full EICR would call for the inspector to remove and inspect a certain number/% of wall and ceiling accessories, so you should be able to see if any insulation degradation is present or not. As for your statement about not testing a VIR installation, i really can't understand that approach at all, it's all part of what you're being ''PAID'' to do!!!!


Look in an ideal world all old wiring should be replaced as a matter of course, but we live in the real world of recessions and the like, where that ideal is not always possible. Of course if during the EICR inspection it becomes apparent that the insulation of old cables is falling apart willy nilly, then fine you have no alternative but to code it as necessary, which will undoubtedly lead to the requirement of a full or partial rewire...

 

[Farmelectrics]

If I seen vir I would stop immediately don't desterb as the insulation could start to crumble recommend a rewire if the customer doesn't want to no walk away