Who is doing all the installs?

[moggy1968]

I doubt they pay their subbies too well at those prices.
Pay peanuts get monkeys!

 

[SRE]

There will always be a market for the more specialist installers - at the minute solar is such a small market that the question is whether the quality installers can survive long enough for the market to level out. Once they go there's no hope really, then we end up with poorly installed systems causing problems and the whole industry's reputation suffers.

 

[sambotc]

I agree, although any small company who are still specialising solely in solar P.V might want to consider other avenues. To many companies on board to consider it a niche, it's like opening up a petrol station who specialise in diesel only!

 

[SibertSolar]

Interesting thread, thanks. My tuppence on the whole price erosion process/issue - end-customers will always want to pay as little as possible, for the greatest return as possible. However, products are priced differently for many different reasons and "value for money" needs to be the key factor when trying to sell to, or educate, the end-user. People don't mind paying a perceived premium over other lower-cost products if they can see the benefit in real terms - those benefits shouldn't simply be focused on ROI. Other important factors should include solid pre/post-sales/installation support, warranty, reliability, manufacturing origin, performance benefits etc etc. There are normally good reasons why one product may be more expensive in ££ terms than another - it's important to understand those reasons and help the end-user to understand them too, this in turn helps them justify their own decision to spend that little extra on getting a better value-for-money solution.

 

[firemanowl]

Times are tough out there, coming up with 6/7/8 grand is beyond a lot of people at the moment. Gone are the days of whacking it on the mortgage/credit card and paying it off at a later date. I think once things start picking up more people may look at renewables but until then things are going to be tough.

I think a lot of people who are going for the rent a roof schemes are going to be for a shock when they try and sell their houses. If you read the fine print who is going to buy their house with all the restriction the schemes put on. Rent a roofs could be the next PPI and once house owners start saying you never told us that and they complain about mis selling. I could be way off the mark but rent a roofs seem like a runaway train at the minute.

 

[sambotc]

Times were still tough late last year but people still stumped up inflated prices to meet the deadline, £14k+ in some cases.

Personally, it's more about the mindset of customers, the hype and buzz has been lost, the industry seems deflated (for good reasons) but that has a knock on effect to the customer who does a bit of research and thinks, if the installers don't trust the product they are selling, why should they buy it?

 

[SibertSolar]

Completely agree Sambotc, and who has the ear of the end-customer? It's primarily the mainstream media so we need to do all we can to lobby MPs and the likes of Which? to make sure that they get their facts straight so Joe Public isn't misled or misinformed anymore. What should be happening in tandem is the guys at the coalface, ie - you guys, the installers, should be working to change that ill-informed mindset of the customer-base wherever possible. What's more, the likes of the REA, STA, BPVA etc should be working much much harder to help this education process and to use their supposed clout to make sure that information submitted into the public domain is correct, not out of date or based on incorrect, sensationalised or manipulated information.

 

[FB.]

....end-customers will always want to pay as little as possible........."value for money" needs to be the key factor when trying to sell to, or educate, the end-user. People don't mind paying a perceived premium over other lower-cost products if they can see the benefit.

When I had a few companies round to quote, all of them claimed that the panels they were proposing to install offered the best balance of price and performance.
Between myself and a couple of family members, we've had guide prices - from one-team companies to companies with several fitting teams - for all the following panels (some offer more than one type in their quotes):

Bosch
Canadian Solar
Jetion
Kinve
Moser Baer
Sanyo
Suntech

But they can't all be "best value", and what would be fantastic for the consumers would be to see what they're really likely to get, relative to what they're paying.

A consumer can look up the pro's and con's for a purchase of a new car, or a new TV, or a new hi-fi. But with solar it's pot luck because it seems as if solar panel/inverter data is kept top secret and consumer's can't get hold of facts.

 

[FB.]

What I'm saying is that greater education, or greater availability of information would be helpful, because it's a scary prospect for someone to throw several thousand pounds into a 25-year investment when they aren't entirely sure how good or reliable it will be (e.g. £7k for Suntech v £10k for Sanyo); the only information being what the on-comission salesman says.

 

[SRE]

The Photon report gives a good indication of brand performance but it's so expensive now that fewer installers (me included) can afford to keep on top of the stats. What we don't need is the Which? type of report which is misleading.

I agree it's a mine field for consumers, made significantly worse by the introduction of EPC bandings and the confusion around different rates. I'm even dithering about one of my own installs lol.

 

[FB.]

Times were still tough late last year but people still stumped up inflated prices to meet the deadline, £14k+ in some cases.

Late last year, one company quoted me £16k for 3.75kWp - and that was with the threat of 21p looming - depending, of course on the then-uncertain deadlines being met and on court cases.

 

[FB.]

The Photon report gives a good indication of brand performance but it's so expensive now that fewer installers (me included) can afford to keep on top of the stats.

Yes, that's the problem.
If I want good information on solar panels, I have to pay a lot for it - and that's assuming I know where to find it and whether the relatively uneducated customer can cut through the technical jargon.

If I want good information on a new car (say the 4kWp-comparable-priced car: the VW "Up" which the Mrs quite fancies once the hype dies-down) I am fairly sure that a quick Google search would give a good idea of what the car is like with just a few minutes searching.

 

[FB.]

Something which was of great importance to me, was the job being very neat and tidy.

I don't recall any of the companies which quoted me emphasising how well they'd do the installation, but, having looked at nearby houses, I am well aware that there is much to be said for the attention to detail.

Certainly from installations in my area, a combination of solar panels arranged in ugly layouts, cables across the tiles and conduit/cables in prominent places certainly puts a black mark against solar installers in general. I think that many people just let the company do as they please - and many are rent-a-roof who probably don't give a damn what it looks like - without engaging between customer and installer regarding just where the various parts will go.

As it happens, I'm off in a few minutes to "observe" as a relative has the detailed plans drawn up for their soon-to-b-fitted 4kWp system; I'll be there to ask awkward questions about where the various components will be located.
My relative greatly appreciates having an observer "on their side" as it is a scary experience.

 

[Glen Powell]

I can say with no doubt that the rent a roof scheme is still producing a business model that works for them, so if it works for them with their high expectations it should work for joe public.

The commercial rent a roof is also still appealing to the investors although a PPA clause has been added to a lot that didn't have it before.

I have seen a rapid increase in commercial applications over the last 3 weeks and with the news of PD for commercial changing April 6th the phone has been a shade of pink today (not quite red).

It will be interesting over the next couple of weeks I think.

 

[finchy]

I think that's the general census on here firemanowl ! Social housing perhaps. Does everyone else look at a house and go that must be rent a roof, I now I shouldn't be judgmental. The positive for the government Could be a way the tax man can asses how the occupants tax affairs are being run !!! So how did you pay for the solar panels....what solar panels ....!

 

[provr6]

Times are tough out there, coming up with 6/7/8 grand is beyond a lot of people at the moment. Gone are the days of whacking it on the mortgage/credit card and paying it off at a later date. I think once things start picking up more people may look at renewables but until then things are going to be tough.

I think a lot of people who are going for the rent a roof schemes are going to be for a shock when they try and sell their houses. If you read the fine print who is going to buy their house with all the restriction the schemes put on. Rent a roofs could be the next PPI and once house owners start saying you never told us that and they complain about mis selling. I could be way off the mark but rent a roofs seem like a runaway train at the minute.

I bought mine on 2No. 0% 18 month credit cards. At least that way you get 18 months worth of fit payments to help pay off the cards. (Did have to pay a 2% premium though)

 

[provr6]

As I understand, new builds have to have some renewable technologies installed, so the builders just chose the cheapest so they conform. if they can install a solar thermal for say $2K and it means the right boxes have been ticked, why would they pay say £5K for a PV system?
I have seen a small new estate with a few panels fitted to every house, roofs pointing in all directions, systems shaded, but I guess they have ticked the boxes.

Renewables are generally required if code for sustainable homes applies. Housing associations will build to code as a matter of policy/funding.

To meet code you need a percentage improvement over Building Reg standards which increases as the code level increases. SAP calculations are used and a template can be used to see what would happen if you installed PV, solar thermal, Air source heat pumps. The Design and build contractor will use the cheapest methods to just get over the target.

PV was used a lot but now some employers are stating they don't want it as they feel the returns are too low ( remember large housing schemes can take a couple of years to complete and the tarriff will fall by the time its completed - so will the panel costs but the contractor won't pass that onto the client). Also they don't like items that require maintenance (cleaning).

 

[Eco Deal]

What I'm saying is that greater education, or greater availability of information would be helpful, because it's a scary prospect for someone to throw several thousand pounds into a 25-year investment when they aren't entirely sure how good or reliable it will be (e.g. £7k for Suntech v £10k for Sanyo); the only information being what the on-comission salesman says.

i made a solar power buyers guide which i now email with every quote so the people can judge the panels for them selfs instead of some window fitting company telling them a rubbish panel is the bees knees !!!!

 

[moggy1968]

there are three types of panel, good bad and in between.
Beyond that is semantics to be honest.
Sanyo are the best I would say, but is it cost effective? only if it means getting more on your roof IMHO.
Mediocre, Schott, Samsung, Bosch, etc (even Yingli and suntec maybe) are in the middle. They're all much of a muchness in the long term.
Own brand cheapies at the bottom

 

[dobbin231]

The commercial rent a roof is also still appealing to the investors although a PPA clause has been added to a lot that didn't have it before.

What is a PPA clause?