UK 3 phase domestic supply

[UNG]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

And this is the problem the EV has if the expected range figures were more transparent for different driving and climatic conditions people would possibly be more open to them but pitching a figure that it is rarely able or impossible to attain means you are buying something akin to an expensive lottery ticket with a changing outcome due to the prevailing climatic conditions
Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

 

[DPG]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making. You also seem to have limited knowledge regarding the UK electrical infrastructure and capabilities.

Not sure if you answered this in the end, but how many charge points are there in the UK compared to petrol pumps? NOT petrol stations.

 

[plugsandsparks]

And this is the problem the EV has if the expected range figures were more transparent for different driving and climatic conditions people would possibly be more open to them but pitching a figure that it is rarely able or impossible to attain means you are buying something akin to an expensive lottery ticket with a changing outcome due to the prevailing climatic conditions
Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

Its possible, judging by the recent lab developments but the amount of power consumed by an EV is pretty fixed, largely by Newton. So this means to charge quickly for our convenience requires charging at over 250KW, most commercial buildings dont have that to hand so this means building specific charging stations (Super Chargers) that charge DC straight to the battery pack. As mentioned, i have looked into it and as you can imagine the A/C to D/C convertors at that power level are not trivial. Its the equivalent of the "elephant in the room" dont mention it and no one will notice....

 

[Mike Johnson]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making. You also seem to have limited knowledge regarding the UK electrical infrastructure and capabilities.

Not sure if you answered this in the end, but how many charge points are there in the UK compared to petrol pumps? NOT petrol stations.

His profile says: Manufacturer / Distributor / Supplier / Inventor - etc

 

[David Prosser]

Lets not forget that the intention to remove or remodel natural gas into domestic properties for heating and cooking will significantly effect the demand profile for domestic customers.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Lets not forget that the intention to remove or remodel natural gas into domestic properties for heating and cooking will significantly effect the demand profile for domestic customers.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

 

[ferg]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

It's still early, have another coffee and try again.

 

[John-SJW]

to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.
[automerge]1598941232[/automerge]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making.

I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

 

[DPG]

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.
[automerge]1598941232[/automerge]
I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

So did you answer the question about pumps/charge point numbers?

 

[Zerax]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

I'm sure your pal is a sensible chap and realises that 'capable' means 'best case'... rather than what he'll achieve with his style of driving. I think that for a car company to provide a bespoke mileage figure for your driving style and all ranges of ambient temperature is impractical.

As to his new car... he obviously likes EVs as he's bought another one. Should he achieve the same sort of relative range, he'll still be getting about 160 miles. At average UK road speeds, that must be pushing 3hrs of driving... which for me (others may be fine with it) is too far without a break anyway.

For me (others will vary) I do on average about 25 miles a day... with the occasional (like twice a year) longer trip. So EV range is not an issue for me.

 

[DPG]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

People will use more electricity for cooking, so household usage will go up with that as well as EV charging.

 

[Zerax]

Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

An interesting question...

I've been learning alot recently about EVs... and in particular EV Vans. One of the things that I've learnt is that owning and using an EV can be more convenient than an ICE vehicle. It's just a different sort of convenient, a different way of doing things... it's mostly about change. And change is notoriously difficult for us mere humans. Before I'm shot down in flames... I want to be clear that I don't think they work for everyone right now... but for several million people, they do.

So for me, right now with a diesel van... once every couple of weeks, when the fuel light comes on, I'll have to go off somewhere to buy diesel. It takes me maybe 15 mins all in... travelling to it, filling, paying and travelling back. Done that for years... I'm used to it... it's routine.

With an EV... I'd plug it in when I got home (I can park outside my own front door). In the morning, unplug it, hang the cable up and drive off. Not every day... but every other one say. It would become routine in the same way that driving off to find diesel is now.

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

 

[nicebutdim]

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.

.....

I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters.

.....

The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.


This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track.

I'm genuinely stunned by the idea of taking 30 minutes to refuel a car and this highlights another gulf between London and the rest of the UK. There may be one or two occasions per year when I can't drive straight to a pump and those occasions only require a wait of 1-2 minutes.

The very idea of zero emissions is a red herring and one that seems to obsess many people. I'm very much in favour of reducing our use of resources and the pollutants we create, but we should not kid ourselves about EVs, simply because no fumes are released from an exhaust pipe.

I do fully agree that battery technology has seen a huge increase in R&D due to the advent of EVs. We are yet seeing the fruits of those investments, with current batteries not being far removed from early Lithium-ion cells, but that will undoubtedly change in the near future.

One the last point; regarding this thread running off at a tangent, please don't be so modest. If I could draw you attention to posts 3, 7 and 9, you first moved to gas, then the Tesla Powerwall and finally launched straight in to the subject of EVs - previously EVs had been mentioned only in relation to additional loads on the UK grid. Others have merely followed your lead as thread creator.

 

[DPG]

An interesting question...

I've been learning alot recently about EVs... and in particular EV Vans. One of the things that I've learnt is that owning and using an EV can be more convenient than an ICE vehicle. It's just a different sort of convenient, a different way of doing things... it's mostly about change. And change is notoriously difficult for us mere humans. Before I'm shot down in flames... I want to be clear that I don't think they work for everyone right now... but for several million people, they do.

So for me, right now with a diesel van... once every couple of weeks, when the fuel light comes on, I'll have to go off somewhere to buy diesel. It takes me maybe 15 mins all in... travelling to it, filling, paying and travelling back. Done that for years... I'm used to it... it's routine.

With an EV... I'd plug it in when I got home (I can park outside my own front door). In the morning, unplug it, hang the cable up and drive off. Not every day... but every other one say. It would become routine in the same way that driving off to find diesel is now.

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

Agree with some of that, except the filling up with diesel. Don't drive 15 minutes to fill up and then go back home. Call at the petrol station on your way to somewhere else surely?. Top tip eh

 

[davesparks]

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

That's not unique to EVs, there are various ways of achieving that in any vehicle.

I've got a webasto fuel burning heater on a timer plumbed in to the coolant system in my 20 year old landrover defender that gets the engine and cab up to temperature while I'm eating my breakfast.

Or you can fit what is basically a small immersion heater into your coolant system, plug it in on a timer and it will warm the engine block up so that you have instant heat and much easier starting.

 

[Mike Johnson]

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

As above I have the facility to start my car from my iPhone from inside the house to warm it up before I need it.

 

[Zerax]

With an EV though there's an added bonus... I could also pre-heat the van in the morning... so it's toasty warm when I got in... no more de-icing the windows. Is that more of less convenient ?

I forgot the caveat (some people are so picky !)... obviously some ICE vehicles can do this already, but they are rare or you have to install them as a non-standard upgrade.

I know that some VW Californias have 2 diesel heaters... a 'parking heater' and an engine pre-heater. This feature is generally regarded as a big selling point for them, whilst it's nearly always standard on EVs. (I'm not saying ALL, as I haven't investigated them all)

 

[John-SJW]

The very idea of zero emissions is a red herring

zero emission at the point of use is not a red herring at all. It is coming. About three years ago the transport minister abandoned the large scale electrification project, because zero emission battery and hydrogen fuel cell trains can fill the bill

I do fully agree that battery technology has seen a huge increase in R&D due to the advent of EVs. We are yet seeing the fruits of those investments

I gave the Tesla one million charges battery to be announced within days.

I did not labour the point of EVs on this thread.
[automerge]1598973314[/automerge]

So did you answer the question about pumps/charge point numbers?

Did you do a Google? I gave links to EV chargers outnumbering petrol pumps. That is not counting home charging either, which are being installed every day, with also public chargers being fitted every day.
[automerge]1598973595[/automerge]

Or you can fit what is basically a small immersion heater into your coolant system, plug it in on a timer and it will warm the engine block up so that you have instant heat and much easier starting.

They are decades old. Fitted by dealers in Canada with supermarkets having plug in points to keep the engine warm.
[automerge]1598974285[/automerge]
This EV car has a range of 360 miles. They swap out your battery in 3 minutes, if you want - an instant 360 miles range. China is the largest maker of EVs, and the largest user with half of the EVs in the world. They make 99% of EV buses.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw

 

[mattg4321]

How many vehicles can all the petrol pumps in the U.K. service per hour vs how many vehicles can all the EV chargers service per hour. That’s the only fair comparison. I think we all know the answer.

Can’t believe you have to wait so long for petrol/diesel. I nip in on my way somewhere. It would be highly unusual for me to not be in and out in under 5 minutes.

 

[John-SJW]

How many vehicles can all the petrol pumps in the U.K. service per hour vs how many vehicles can all the EV chargers service per hour. That’s the only fair comparison. I think we all know the answer.

How come you find it so difficult to understand something so simple?