UK 3phase help

[Dave79]

Hello everyone,
I am an artist and have a picture framing machine that is 3phase, bought it years ago and not sure if it is working and just want to test it. At my unit I have a 3phase consumer unit but no 3 phase power socket only 230v sockets. Because times are hard and I want to save money or die trying which most of you will agree will happen if I attempt this my self. I have attached a diagram of how I think it might be done just wanted the professionals opinion.
Thanks

 

[telectrix]

can't quite see the next to bottom picture. but...... first there is a convention as to which colour conductor is used for L1,L2,and L3, and this should be followed. second, there are 2 ways of connecting 3 phase equipment, star or delta. get this wrong and it's bye bye equipment. get phase sequence wrong and motors run in reverse.
i strongly advise you to enlist the services of an electrician experienced in 3 phase installs ( not a boil-in- the -bag domestic installer.). the new circuit must be supported by a EIC (electrical installation certificate) which shows that 1. the new work is safe and compliant, and 2. that your existing installation is safe in itself to perform additional works.

 

[Megawatt]

Hello everyone,
I am an artist and have a picture framing machine that is 3phase, bought it years ago and not sure if it is working and just want to test it. At my unit I have a 3phase consumer unit but no 3 phase power socket only 230v sockets. Because times are hard and I want to save money or die trying which most of you will agree will happen if I attempt this my self. I have attached a diagram of how I think it might be done just wanted the professionals opinion.
Thanks

Dave79 what size is that motor and since you are trying to save money just hard wire it but it’s so important that you have ample protection and a disconnect. If your not sure and you sound like your not why don’t you have an electrician help you wire it up

 

[Dave79]

can't quite see the next to bottom picture. but...... first there is a convention as to which colour conductor is used for L1,L2,and L3, and this should be followed. second, there are 2 ways of connecting 3 phase equipment, star or delta. get this wrong and it's bye bye equipment. get phase sequence wrong and motors run in reverse.
i strongly advise you to enlist the services of an electrician experienced in 3 phase installs ( not a boil-in- the -bag domestic installer.). the new circuit must be supported by a EIC (electrical installation certificate) which shows that 1. the new work is safe and compliant, and 2. that your existing installation is safe in itself to perform additional works.

Thankyou for the reply, I have attached picture of the motor and the plug wire on the machine , the motor is 0.75hp the wiring on it is as original and I have not changed it in any way, This is made in Denmark so I am not sure the wire colours are the same as in the uk and it is a few years old. It is right to assume U1 is L1, V1 is L2, and W1 is L3? if so then L1 is blue, L2 is Brown and L3 is Black so on the plug side I would attach in same order.
Thanks

 

[telectrix]

conventionally L1 is brown, L2 is black, L3 is grey. however, this may need to be altered if the motor runs in reverse. also a pic of the rating plate, showing voltage and configurations would help.

 

[bill01803]

If you fit a socket it is required to have RCD protection unless it is more than 32A.
Motor looks like it is wired star, as said above you should employ a proper electrician

 

[Dave79]

Dave79 what size is that motor and since you are trying to save money just hard wire it but it’s so important that you have ample protection and a disconnect. If your not sure and you sound like your not why don’t you have an electrician help you wire it up

Hi, Thankyou for the reply, I did think of hard wiring it but thought to add a switch and a circuit breaker just for peace of mind ( don't laugh) .
The motor is 0.75hp so its a small motor which runs the hydraulic pump. I was going to eventually get a qualified electrician but just wanted to test if it works, if not then I do not have any other 3phase equipment and do not want to spend any more to get a 3phase socket.
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conventionally L1 is brown, L2 is black, L3 is grey. however, this may need to be altered if the motor runs in reverse. also a pic of the rating plate, showing voltage and configurations would help.

Here is the pic of the rating plate

 

[telectrix]

you'd need to buty a 3 phase MCB before you start anyway and they aere not cheap. then once you've tried it out. you'd need RCD protection.

 

[davesparks]

Nobody is going to advise you to DIY a 3 phase connection of any kind. Without knowledge of how to do it safely, or knowledge of how to comply with the wiring regulations, this could be very dangerous.

Also consider that if this is, as it appears to be, a work environment then there are laws governing this, not just the wiring regulations. The electricity at work regulations would be the main one.

Whilst I'm sure you can laugh off the risk of electric shock etc with phrases like "I want to save money or die trying" you might consider the financial risk more important?
The machine is probably fine and will probably run fine when connected correctly. However if it is connected incorrectly and runs backwards you may take a perfectly good machine and break it.

You may even connect it correctly for the colours and labelling but find that the incoming supply to the board is reversed or that the wiring inside the motor is reversed (which it would appear to be from the colours of the internal wiring you can just see behind the flex connections)

Whatever you decide to do I would suggest you check over the hydraulic system, check the condition of the hydraulic fluid, turn it over by hand or tool to make sure nothing is seized and similar checks before applying power to it.
Powering it up without checking these things could also result in a perfectly good machine being damaged.

Hydraulics can be very dangerous, possibly more dangerous than electricity, as a failed seal or tiny leak can inject hot oil into your body from a modest distance and cause you serious health problems.
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you'd need to buty a 3 phase MCB before you start anyway and they aere not cheap. then once you've tried it out. you'd need RCD protection.

I'd advise having RCD protection before trying it out!

 

[telectrix]

I'd advise having RCD protection before trying it out!

obviously so would I, my comment was concerned that if he fitted RCD before testing the appliance, and the appliance was faulty, he;s wasted more than the cost of employing a sparks.

 

[davesparks]

I'd advise having RCD protection before trying it out!

obviously so would I, my comment was concerned that if he fitted RCD before testing the appliance, and the appliance was faulty, he;s wasted more than the cost of employing a sparks.

I get that, but if it is faulty and he gets a nasty shock he may have wasted his life. An RCD might save him.

 

[pc1966]

As already said by davesparks, try the basic checks first.

Also ask around as someone locally might already have a 3-phase socket you can try things out on if you want to be sure (yes, I know that sort of machine is hardly portable)..

BUT - that wire looks fairly thin, can you see its size or rating embossed along the length of it?

My point is a 16A three-phase socket can deliver 11kW and you need less than 1kW for that size of motor so you really should have some sort of motor starter that provides overload protection, and make sure the cable is adequately rated for whatever socket you have (for testing or final installation). So for a 16A socket then at least 1.5mm cable should be used.
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Another reason for getting a professional electrician in is they can also do a quick insulation resistance check on the motor and winding resistance first which would be the very start point for answering "Will this possibly work?"
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It is also worth considering if you could simply replace the motor with a single-phase of the same size. That might be cheaper than getting 3-phase in (even just the cost of MCB / RCD / Socket) and then you can run it from a normal 13A socket.

 

[Dave79]

Thankyou guys for all your replies, I was expecting a lot more harsh comments but you have been very helpful, this is a great forum. Although I did joke about it you are right this is no joke and I think I might have to get some quotes form a proper 3phase electrician, Just thought if there was any quick way to just check if it is working then I would get a proper installation but if it is not working then straight to the scrapyard. I will get a quote if it is too much then I will just leave it in the corner again. just a quick question from the uk Sparks here, Roughly what sort of cost would I be looking at (materials included) to get a very simple straight forward 3phase socket roughly 3 meters away from the consumer unit? Just to be prepared of what it might cost me, attached is the pic of the consumer unit.

 

[pc1966]

A quick on-line look at the parts alone have a Hager 3-pole MCB around £41 and a RCD 3-phase socket around £250, on top of that probably an hour or two's work and cable. I don't do this commercially but to hazard a guess I would be looking at £500 for the job.

A quick check for approx cost of a 0.75hp single-phase motor is around £100.

 

[davesparks]

Just thought if there was any quick way to just check if it is working then I would get a proper installation but if it is not working then straight to the scrapyard.

The first thing to do is to give it a thorough inspection, this you can do for free yourself, check things like:
All moving parts move as they should, are free moving, lubricated as necessary.
the hydraulics for obvious signs of leaks, split or perished hoses etc.
The hydyraulic fluid for any signs of contamination or other problems.
Turn the motor over by hand or using a tool, make sure it turns, isn't jammed etc.

Does the machine have any electrical controls on it or does that cable go directly to the motor?

 

[Lucien Nunes]

However if it is connected incorrectly and runs backwards you may take a perfectly good machine and break it.

This is quite important. If it uses a vane pump that has significant wear on it, running backwards can cause instant loss of performance. In any doubt I would start it with some series resistance or a variac and just inch it over to make sure the rotation is correct before letting it run.

Your sketch shows a 3P+N+E (5-pin) socket wired with only the three lines and earth connected. This would be a serious mistake because even if the present machine does not require a neutral, if other equipment were connected that did, it could be damaged by the lack of one. Either a neutral connection to the 5-pin socket, or a 4-pin (3P+E) socket is necessary.

 

[Dave79]

The first thing to do is to give it a thorough inspection, this you can do for free yourself, check things like:
All moving parts move as they should, are free moving, lubricated as necessary.
the hydraulics for obvious signs of leaks, split or perished hoses etc.
The hydyraulic fluid for any signs of contamination or other problems.
Turn the motor over by hand or using a tool, make sure it turns, isn't jammed etc.

Does the machine have any electrical controls on it or does that cable go directly to the motor?

It is packed with electronics on the front, plc etc etc , there is a transformer on the front which I think takes 3 phase and converts it to 230V for the electronics but I would not have a clue. I think I might also look at the option of getting it converted to single phase. That might work out cheaper.
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A quick on-line look at the parts alone have a Hager 3-pole MCB around £41 and a RCD 3-phase socket around £250, on top of that probably an hour or two's work and cable. I don't do this commercially but to hazard a guess I would be looking at £500 for the job.

A quick check for approx cost of a 0.75hp single-phase motor is around £100.

I think I will enquire about getting it converted to single phase first, That might work out cheaper

 

[nicebutdim]

This is quite important. If it uses a vane pump that has significant wear on it, running backwards can cause instant loss of performance.

Reversing any hydraulic pump is a bad idea - same with hydraulic motors, unless they're designed to be reversed. Even simple aluminium bodied gear pumps are bedded in and reversing them will cause gears to remove material from their body/bushes which instantly introduces contamination to the oil, along with reduction in performance. Best to be certain of drive direction before coupling a pump.

 

[telectrix]

Thankyou guys for all your replies, I was expecting a lot more harsh comments but you have been very helpful, this is a great forum. Although I did joke about it you are right this is no joke and I think I might have to get some quotes form a proper 3phase electrician, Just thought if there was any quick way to just check if it is working then I would get a proper installation but if it is not working then straight to the scrapyard. I will get a quote if it is too much then I will just leave it in the corner again. just a quick question from the uk Sparks here, Roughly what sort of cost would I be looking at (materials included) to get a very simple straight forward 3phase socket roughly 3 meters away from the consumer unit? Just to be prepared of what it might cost me, attached is the pic of the consumer unit.

how can someone manage to make a rat's nest out of so few cables?

and just to be contentious, i'm sure that an RCD will not protect against a phase - phase contact. so i mat well protect you from 240V, but not 415V.