Discuss against the law or not? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

A

adzberry

My employer is trying to persuade the apprentice to start doing DEICR's on his own as he has "watched me doing them for ages" where does the law stand on this?

And to answer any questions - this is one of many reasons I start with a new company in 2 weeks
 
if he's competent to do them, happy and confident to do them, maybe. but he should make it clear that the company carry the can for any cock-ups.
 
The boss must think so lol :)
 
but the boss could be a muppet, just trying to get eicr's done on the cheap.
 
well no but when I was halfway through my third year my gaffer started putting me on my own jobs why because he saw potential and this brought me on so in my 4th year I was running decent I&C jobs and having to train domestic time served sparks plus the company made more money paying me apprentice wages and charging for a spark. I thought he was taking advantage of me at the time 30 years later its a case of give me the boy and I will make the man
 
well no but when I was halfway through my third year my gaffer started putting me on my own jobs why because he saw potential and this brought me on so in my 4th year I was running decent I&C jobs and having to train domestic time served sparks plus the company made more money paying me apprentice wages and charging for a spark. I thought he was taking advantage of me at the time 30 years later its a case of give me the boy and I will make the man

Very true , but the first thing that went though my mind was: 'give me the boy and I will give you the Van (horse)' - not very fair and i can see why the OP has legged it.

Some of the apprentices I have worked with were 'hot to trot' - translated in this instance , they were good
 
I know what you're saying as I ran jobs in my 3rd year of being an apprentice etc, but this apprentice is half way through year 1 and been on the tools for all of 9 months! Everything the company does is backwards and I don't want to be associated anymore! Another one he did was.... Telling a customer that the LED lights he's supplied are 'fire rated' as in an old cottage with exposed beams fire rated downlights wouldn't fit and it was near on impossible to fit fire hoods (this job was replacing downlights already wired, in a living room with living accommodation above) also I wasn't the spark doing the job, just heard him on the phone to a customer
 
Hellishly difficult to stand up in a court of law and prove competence without the requisite qualifications and experience. Nothing illegal but thinking someone is competent and proving they are are not the same thing.
 
The first job I did on my own was in my 2nd year dropped off in a housing scheme that was the roughest in my area by a country mile.at the time I thought he was taking advantage but now as old timer says it was a way of bringing you on to work on your own.
Saying that ther is no way an apprentice no matter how good has the experience to carry out inspections on his own.christ there are time served sparks who don't know one end of a Meter from another .your gaffer must need his head looked at if he thinks this is ok
 
I think that all time served electricians have been given their own job, towards the end of their time. That doesn't mean that no-one was keeping an eye on your work!! It was the way of building confidence in yourself!!

No way on this earth should an apprentice be let loose testing on his own after just 9 months, that's just totally ridiculous, if not criminal (even if not lawfully.) This guy is still learning the basic fundamentals of electrical theory, let alone electrical work.

Your well out of it leaving in in 2 weeks, sooner or later, this boss is going to come a real cropper, and serves him right!!
 
Re original question, he should be allowed to do some I&T under supervision at the very least.




But will this boss?
I somehow doubt it.

Not after just nine months, he should be there watching learning and asking questions!! ....Help yes!!

Seeing as the boss is a complete nut case, (a dangerous one at that) i dam well hope so!! lol!!
 
My misuse of English, I am new to this country.
I mean to say, At least he should be allowed to I&T under supervision! But don't sign his name to it.

How many people have been done recently for electrical work of any nature?

You stand more chance of being prosecuted for waving a sunflower at a copper!!!!!!
 
My misuse of English, I am new to this country.
I mean to say, At least he should be allowed to I&T under supervision! But don't sign his name to it.

How many people have been done recently for electrical work of any nature?

You stand more chance of being prosecuted for waving a sunflower at a copper!!!!!!

Absolutely NOT!! ...He should be learning from the mentor electrician, not Doing, at this stage of his training!! What's that got to do with it, that[s for the legal authorities to decide. Were talking about an apprentice that wouldn't know much about anything, let alone testing circuits. As for that last sentence of yours, .... ''but don't sign his name to it'' That scares the hell out of me, if that's what's going on with apprentices out in the field, with just a few months on the job!!
 
At least he should be allowed to I&T under supervision!


Absolutely NOT!! ...He should be learning from the mentor electrician, not Doing, at this stage of his training!! What's that got to do with it, that[s for the legal authorities to decide. Were talking about an apprentice that wouldn't know much about anything, let alone testing circuits. As for that last sentence of yours, .... ''but don't sign his name to it'' That scares the hell out of me, if that's what's going on with apprentices out in the field, with just a few months on the job!!

Do you understand the meaning of the word 'supervision'?!

How the hell is a novice going to learn? Obviously having observed his mentor beforehand!

As for the legal side of all this, I couldn't care less, no one else does.
 
There are no absolute restrictions on working alone; it will depend on the findings of a risk assessment.

There are two main pieces of legislation that will apply:
The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974: Section 2 sets out a duty of care on employers to ensure the health, safety and welfare of their employees whilst they are at work.

The Management of Health and Safety at work Regulations 1999: Regulation 3 states that every employer shall make a suitable and sufficient assessment of -

  • the risks to the health and safety of his employees to which they are exposed whilst they are at work; and
  • the risks to the health and safety of persons not in his employment arising out of or in connection with the conduct by him of his undertaking.
Although there is no general legal prohibition on working alone, the broad duties of the HSWA and MHSWR still apply. These require identifying hazards of the work, assessing the risks involved, and putting measures in place to avoid or control the risks.

Control measures may include instruction, training, supervision, protective equipment etc. Employers should take steps to check that control measures are used and review the risk assessment from time to time to ensure it is still adequate.
When risk assessment shows that it is not possible for the work to be done safely by a lone worker, arrangements for providing help or back-up should be put in place. Where a lone worker is working at another employer's workplace, that employer should inform the lone worker's employer of any risks and the control measures that should be taken. This helps the lone worker's employer to assess the risks.

Risk assessment should help decide the right level of supervision. There are some high-risk activities where at least one other person may need to be present. Examples include some high-risk confined space working where a supervisor may need to be present, as well as someone dedicated to the rescue role, and electrical work at or near exposed live conductors where at least two people are sometimes required.
As HSE considers, not unreasonably, that live testing is live working as defined in the Electricity at Work Regulations:1989, and specifically Regulation 14 is applicable in all cases. It is therefore likely that in the event of an accident they would argue in court that an apprentice live testing or otherwise working live should be supervised at all times.

Lone workers should not be at more risk than other employees. This may require extra risk-control measures. Precautions should take account of normal work and foreseeable emergencies, e.g. fire, equipment failure, illness and accidents.

Employers should identify situations where people work alone and ask questions such as:


  • Does the workplace present a special risk to the lone worker?
  • Is there a safe way in and a way out for one person? Can any temporary access equipment which is necessary, such as portable ladders or trestles, be safely handled by one person?
  • Can all the plant, substances and goods involved in the work be safely handled by one person? Consider whether the work involves lifting objects too large for one person or whether more than one person is needed to operate essential controls for the safe running of equipment.
  • Is there a risk of violence?
  • Are women especially at risk if they work alone?
  • Are young workers especially at risk if they work alone?
  • Is the person medically fit and suitable to work alone?
  • What happens if the person becomes ill, or has an accident or there is an emergency?
 
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