Bs5839 fire alarms

[Electricalserv]

Got a commercial job coming up and one of these is involved. I've Neva touched one how hard are they to do?

 

[Bradzz]

When you say you have never touched one, can you explain a bit more, what is it you need to know, i have a book in front of me called IEE Electricians gudie to Fire Detection and Alarm Sysems.

 

[accordfire]

Well, aside from 35% markups, and ripping all our customers off......

Has someone else done the design for you?

Any experience running pyro or FP200?

In principle, installing a fire alarm is no harder than any other electrical work. The "hard" bit is in knowing the design is right and complies with the requirements for it - usually led from a Fire Risk Assessment, insurer demand, and other legal compliance documents. Then there's commissioning it - making sure it does what it is supposed to, when, and how. And then ongoing maintenance (which is required, by a competent person) in order to comply with BS5839.

It will be BS5839-1 you need, in essence, as it's commercial - but what do you know about the system specifically - design? Category? and so on....



Is it analogue or conventional?

And on and on -

 

[Electricalserv]

A couple of builders have rang me up want me to look at a new build tomorrow all conduits and singles. No problem with that. Just the mention of fire alarm has put me off. Obviously micc cable? I know certain regs for it like positioning of detectors etc but whats all the verification and commissiong stuff?

 

[accordfire]

A couple of builders have rang me up want me to look at a new build tomorrow all conduits and singles. No problem with that. Just the mention of fire alarm has put me off. Obviously micc cable? I know certain regs for it like positioning of detectors etc but whats all the verification and commissiong stuff?

Is the spec for MICC - very few installs are these days - mostly FP200, probably enhanced grade.

You can't do a system of that scope without a proper design, and expect it to comply, so design is ESSENTIAL. The architect (hopefully) or some other authority should have put a category to the system - e.g. will comply with the requirements for an Lx system (where x is a number between 1 and 5) - or it may be a P category system.

Either way - you need that, and then to design the system to that category. The design is also fundamental to what cable you run, and where.

Once the system is installed (depending on size, it may be conventional which is easier to commission but has a higher overhead in installation time) or it may be analogue (which is harder to commission correctly, but has a lower installation overhead) - it needs fully testing, after programming to ensure it works exactly as intended, and in compliance with the requirements of the standard (e.g. activation times, phased evac, cause and effect, and so on).

Then maintenance. It still escapes me how people think that they can have a compliant system without maintenance in place - it clearly states in the standard that maintenance is part of the compliance requirement - and therefore is mandatory, not optional.

It may be the case that the builder knows he needs an "L3 system" for example - but expects to leave the design to you. In that case, best advice is to get a designer involved......which can be done from plans.

Sounds to me like you're best off roping in a fire company, and submitting their price to do the work (with any mark up you add for the management of that service....... (joke, not dig)).........

 

[Electricalserv]

Fire alarm course

 

[accordfire]

Fire alarm course

That would be a good place to start.

FIA Training Courses - units 1, 4 and 5 as a minimum would give a good basic grounding, and are generally a minimum of what we look for in a technician.

Leeds or Manchester probably closest to you.

 

[robsparky1975]

£675 for a 3 day course,seems a bit excessive,i would like to do the course,but dont understand why it needs to be so much.

 

[telectrix]

nothing difficult about fire alarms. basically radials in 1.5mm FP200. + & - in, same out, with eol device at end of radial. just have to ensure that the design is suitable for the purpose. generally the local council and/or fire officer will stripulate what level of protection is required.

 

[ecservices]

BS5839 reg,s stands for every thing related to any fire work from design to commissioning


even if electrician install it its still needs commioning certificate produced by competant person or approved fire alarm company with high value of insurense

 

[Engineer54]

I take it, that as fire alarm systems are not covered by BS7671, this is another area of our industry that is not covered in any way by the present day training of electricians. I can remember fire alarm systems being covered quite extensively in my training, but i can't be sure if that was company promoted, or official curriculum stuff.

As Tel pointed out, it's not rocket science, in fact the installation side of things has become a lot easier with the advent of addressable systems, not that traditional systems were in any way difficult. The programming, inspection, testing, Commissioning, of any fire alarm system is also quite straight forward, that you work through methodically. Computer controlled systems can get a lot more involved, when it needs linking with a BMS system from another manufacturer...

Seems that these days, it's all been taken over by specialist companies, that are protecting their interests, and the only way into this area is to pay through the nose again, ....all about money these days...

 

[p11jor]

Electricalserv........by any chance was this a job in Liverpool city centre? I think I had a call on this one......did you do it?

 

[Dunc]

Fire alarms in principle are very simple however I would suggest that unless you have specific insurance for this sort of commercial work you won't be covered by your indemnity insurance if the design was bad nor your liability. Best bet is to contact your local wholesaler. Most will have dealings with a manufacturer who will design and commission the system and sell you all the necessary bits. All you have to do is install it, simples. Better bet then buying a copy of 5839 which was £180 last time I looked!

 

[Knobhead]

I think Dunc has hit the nail on the head, it all comes down to your insurance cover. No cover and you're going to be looking for this place

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