Ceiling lighting advice for novice

[TonyH28]

Hi all,
Found myself here as I am looking for some advice on ceiling lights and it seemed like a friendly place!!

I have a very dark kitchen with only 1 ceiling light. I really don't like the commercial spot light fixtures and would like to replace the single light with a few recessed down-lights. As the floor above is not really accessible, I intend to build a partial false ceiling from MDF, paint and attach to the existing ceiling. I figured this would be easier that chasing out the ceiling or trying to drill through joists from the underside. My question therefore is this, can I just wire up 6 recessed down-lights from this 1 set of wires for the existing light? and if so, how do I go about doing this? I guess I need to ask if I am actually allowed to do this also? The idea would be do have all the wiring/connectors in the hollow I would be creating in the false ceiling. I could make this accessible or not, depending on regulations. (for example, I could screw the false ceiling into place, paint but use caps so it's removable if need be.)

Many thanks and look forward to reading any replies. Would be a great help.

 

[Davisonp]

Just out of interest, have you thought about track lighting? A strip running the length of the kitchen fed from the existing lighting position with multiple LED spotlights lighting the kitchen.

 

[TonyH28]

Just out of interest, have you thought about track lighting? A strip running the length of the kitchen fed from the existing lighting position with multiple LED spotlights lighting the kitchen.

I had thought about it, but again, I think they are just spots?? no? I would like something that gives off a more ambient light I guess. I thought that recessed ceiling lights (larger ones) would do this, if I could.

 

[TonyH28]

ps...also, I figured my false ceiling kind a thing would mask the hole I would leave having taken out the old fitting. Will take another look at them though.

 

[multimick]

4x2 timber all round and at 16ins centres half ins plasterboard on that .cables in beforehand ,job done

 

[TonyH28]

4x2 timber all round and at 16ins centres half ins plasterboard on that .cables in beforehand ,job done

Yeah, I can do the woodwork and plasterboards stuff, it's the wiring I have no clue about. How do I wire from 1 existing fitting to 6 or 8 down-lights? Sorry, It's probably very obvious but I have no clue. As in I have 3 wires, yet potentially 6 lights to wire from it? Do I just use a junction box and daisy chain em from there?

 

[Spoon]

Use plasterboard as it has more fire retardant properties than MDF.
'Daisy Chain' is wiring from one light to another, then another. Not all from one junction box.
If you have not done any electrical work before how are you going to test the circuit?
How confident are you with wiring up lights?
You could get a track light with light that have a more angled light than 'just spots'.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Yeah, I can do the woodwork and plasterboards stuff, it's the wiring I have no clue about. How do I wire from 1 existing fitting to 6 or 8 down-lights? Sorry, It's probably very obvious but I have no clue. As in I have 3 wires, yet potentially 6 lights to wire from it? Do I just use a junction box and daisy chain em from there?

I guessing you mean 3 sets of twin and earth cables? Meaning 1x perm feed in, neutral and earth 1x perm. Feed out, neutral and earth. 1x perm. Feed to switch (normally red/brown) , switch line from switch to fitting (normally black/blue) and earth. You want to keep the 2x perm feed together along with the feed to switch. Both the neutrals plus a new neutral from a new run of twin and earth. Connect the switch line from switch with live of new twin and earth and then daisy chain.

Edit: obviously connect all the earths together.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Trouble is, I can't see from here what's what so this is all speculation. is it going to be properly terminated? adequate supply? the list could go on. If your not sure, get someone who does know.

 

[TonyH28]

Wow. I have no idea what you said, sorry mr2 gd4u!!

Can I just wire up the existing 3 wires into a junction box, then come out of it to 6 separate lights? I guess I just figured as the wiring is there, its just a case of extending it and coming off it?

If I can't do this myself, then what kind of cost to do any wiring? Thank you!!!!

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Wow. I have no idea what you said, sorry mr2 gd4u!!

Can I just wire up the existing 3 wires into a junction box, then come out of it to 6 separate lights? I guess I just figured as the wiring is there, its just a case of extending it and coming off it?

If I can't do this myself, then what kind of cost to do any wiring? Thank you!!!!

By that answer I would say get someone in. I'd say min. £250 depending on area

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Wait I might have read wrong. Have you got just a single twin and earth at the light fitting? (1xbrown/black, 1xblue/black and earth)

 

[TonyH28]

Wait I might have read wrong. Have you got just a single twin and earth at the light fitting? (1xbrown/black, 1xblue/black and earth)

Yes, that's exactly what I have got. Sorry, not too good at explaining and probably should have just took a picture.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Yes, that's exactly what I have got. Sorry, not too good at explaining and probably should have just took a picture.

Ahh my apologies.
Then as you said just connect a new run. Use wago's in a box instead of junction box.

 

[TonyH28]

Ahh my apologies.
Then as you said just connect a new run. Use wago's in a box instead of junction box.

Wago's huh? I can google that. Like connectors I guess, in a box? So I wire up the three wires to the wago box and can just come off them how ever many times I need? for 6 lights?

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Wago's huh? I can google that. Like connectors I guess, in a box? So I wire up the three wires to the wago box and can just come off them how ever many times I need? for 6 lights?

Yes, just run the cable from one light to the next instead of running 6 cables to the one point.

 

[TonyH28]

Yes, just run the cable from one light to the next instead of running 6 cables to the one point.

Sorry again, how do I do that? if i have 3 wires to a wago box, then 3 wires from that to the first light, where do the wires come from to the other 5 lights? I'm sorry to be so stupid on this, I can do it, just need specific instruction like you would give to a robot!!!

 

[Spoon]

just need specific instruction like you would give to a robot!!!

It's against forum rules to give step-by-step instructions out.

 

[TonyH28]

It's against forum rules to give step-by-step instructions out.

Is it? Sorry. Why?

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Connect from wago to first light, Connect a new length from first light to second light and so on.

 

['mr2'gd4u]

But I will reiterate that by the sounds of things you would be safer getting someone in.

 

[Octopus]

Connect from wago to first light, Connect a new length from first light to second light and so on.

Read post #18

 

[Octopus]

Is it? Sorry. Why?

Because this is a forum for sparks to help sparks ..... not to give away trade skills FOC to DIYers ....

 

[Spoon]

Is it? Sorry. Why?

How The DIY Area Works And The Step By Step Guide Rule - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/how-the-diy-area-works-and-the-step-by-step-guide-rule.99209/

You should have a read of this thread as well @'mr2'gd4u

 

['mr2'gd4u]

Heh didn't know, now I do.

 

[TonyH28]

Connect from wago to first light, Connect a new length from first light to second light and so on.

Got you, thank you so much for all your help, I really do appreciate it. Any particular wire I should use? and any wago box you would recommend for the job?

I also appreciate your concern.

How The DIY Area Works And The Step By Step Guide Rule - https://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/threads/how-the-diy-area-works-and-the-step-by-step-guide-rule.99209/

You should have a read of this thread as well @'mr2'gd4u

I see, thank you for clarification. I understand. Thank you.

 

[TonyH28]

Because this is a forum for sparks to help sparks ..... not to give away trade skills FOC to DIYers ....

Okay, but personally I think that's ridiculous. You have a DIY section. What you are basically saying is we can help but not really, as you want DIY'ers to get an electrician in. I understand that from a H&S point of view, you need to be VERY careful, but I can't buy into what you said at all. Its not for sparks to sparks if you have a DIY section and all info in here is FOC, that's the point?

I really do appreciate the help that was given to me here, but if that is really the forum rules, I will search for future advice elsewhere. Thank you again to 'mr2' gd4u.

 

[Octopus]

The DIY section is for basics, not step by step for DIYers to avoid employing skilled trades people

 

[Spoon]

Okay, but personally I think that's ridiculous. You have a DIY section. What you are basically saying is we can help but not really, as you want DIY'ers to get an electrician in. I understand that from a H&S point of view, you need to be VERY careful, but I can't buy into what you said at all. Its not for sparks to sparks if you have a DIY section and all info in here is FOC, that's the point?

I really do appreciate the help that was given to me here, but if that is really the forum rules, I will search for future advice elsewhere. Thank you again to 'mr2' gd4u.

Some DIYers have good knowledge of electrics, how to wire up equipment and what wire to use. They sometimes need clarification on certain things. We can help out there.
You seem to have none of the above, so it's best to suggest you get someone in who can do the job properly and test it afterwards.
If you need step-by-step advice then it is best if you "search for future advice elsewhere." Good luck with the lights mate.

 

[MFS Electrical]

I’d frame it and board it with plasterboard MDF is probably not a good idea on a kitchen ceiling or any ceiling for that matter. Now on to the downlights nice maintenance free JB at the original lighting point above the new false ceiling and then loop to the spots. But for the price of a spark is it worth putting your family in danger by wiring it up yourself? Get a spark in, you can save dough and run the cables in but get him/her to connect it up and test it piece of mind is worth much much more than a few bob saved.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Okay, but personally I think that's ridiculous. You have a DIY section. What you are basically saying is we can help but not really, as you want DIY'ers to get an electrician in. I understand that from a H&S point of view, you need to be VERY careful, but I can't buy into what you said at all. Its not for sparks to sparks if you have a DIY section and all info in here is FOC, that's the point?

I really do appreciate the help that was given to me here, but if that is really the forum rules, I will search for future advice elsewhere. Thank you again to 'mr2' gd4u.

The simple answer as to why you need a spark is there is a lot more to wiring lights than meets the eye. A spark spends on average 4-5 years learning his/her trade and for good reason there are many regulations, which exist to keep everyone and everything safe, which must be complied with and there are many things which must be inspected and checked/tested before the circuit is even designed(even a little addition like this) then the circuit has to be designed, making sure that it won’t impair the safety of the existing installation,taking into account the current carrying capacity of the cable which can also be affected by many different external factors for example what type of wall/ceiling it is buried/concealed in in if at all or if it’s clipped direct on a wall/ceiling and then there is the selection of the breaker(fuse) to make sure the cable won’t melt and start a fire under normal and fault conditions the breaking capacity of the breaker to make sure that it won’t explode during a fault and that the earthing to the building is sound and fit for purpose. And the final testing to ensure that the circuit is safe and won’t electrocute your nearest and dearest, fit for purpose and will disconnect within the prescribed times specified by the requirements.
This is by no means an exhaustive list and there are thousands of requirements that have to be met even for small alterations or additions and it is really the reason that you should get a qualified, competent electrician to carry out electrical work as they should have a sound knowledge of the requirements and these things are second nature to a competent spark and can be carried out very quickly and efficiently the thing that you pay for with a spark is not really the finished product. In this case a couple of wires and a spotlight but it’s the knowledge and work that has went on in the background to get that far and then the finished product. So in reality looking at it from this point of view sparks are really really excellent value for money.

 

[Pete999]

Why not liase the work with an Electrician Tony? you do the wood work etc and the Sparks can do the wiring, test, inspect and certify, it's a Forum rule not to give step by step advice for electrical work, best advice get a sparky to do the electrical work.

 

[Midwest]

I'd remove the current plasterboard ceiling, or sections of, or drill 100mm access wholes; drill necessary wholes in ceiling to facilitate installation of additional wiring.

At this point employ a competent electrician to install cabling.

Then reinstate plasterboard, section(s) of plasterboard or access circles, noting location of wiring for each down light.

At this point employ a recommended plaster to blue grit, tape (you can do that bit yourself) & skim the ceiling. Then paint the ceiling yourself, before or after cutting holes for new down lights.

Then get your electrician back to test & install new down lights. Removing the plasterboard also helps in locating the down lights away from obstacles in the ceiling void, such as wooden noggins or pipes or other services.

Alternately, you could install track lighting, as suggested. I did this in my own new property, where I was banned by her indoors, doing the above. I used some Philips Hue lighting to switch on different spots & pendants. It was rather pricy, but save chopping the ceiling about.

 

[The Ghost]

You can get many different kinds of light for track lighting it doesn't have to be spots.