Con or not?!? City and Guilds 2391 to 2394 and 2395

[harrison2987]

Hi guys,

What do you lot think the reason is for changing the city and guilds 2391 to 2394 and 2395??

From what i understand the 2391 has now been split into 2 courses and become easier to pass (2394 - Initial Verification and Certification of Electrical Installations and 2395 - Periodic Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations).

I know it will also now include amendments aswell, but whats the point in having the 2 courses?

Is this a money maker for the powers that be, and have they made the course easier so more people will attempt it?!?

Please let me know what your thoughts are on this!!

Cheers guys

 

[timbobelfast]

Inspection and Testing hasn't changed, just some terminology! It will only be the agencies who will be asking for 94/95. I have came across some agency jobs advertised looking for 16th Edition sparks lol

 

[GLENNSPARK]

NO CHANCE!!

Has any of these training centre sponsors ever come back to defend they're corner??.... Nope they know they have nothing to defend, and know they will, in all probably get verbally beaten to a pulp!! lol!! They are here to catch as many pundits as they can, for very little outlay!!

I'll let Biff fire the first broadside if they ever did feel brave enough to come on here, and Oldtimer and Trev to finish them off!!!! lol!!

eh?...
so i dont get a look in then?...

 

[D Skelton]

and the s*** that those wanting to only work in the domestic sector don't need 3/4/5 years of training.

C'mon Eng?! Didn't you know that the domestic regs are different to the commercial regs?! You only need 5 weeks to learn the domestic regs. Get with the times!

 

[amo]

It's all about the money

 

[Engineer54]

eh?...
so i dont get a look in then?...

You can keep battering them from every side!! lol!!

 

[Englishman]

Well as someone who has done both the 2391 and the 2394/5 I can confirm that in my personal opinion, the latter was the hardest. If I personally had to employ someone and had to choose between two equally qualified and experienced electricians in every area, both essentially exactly the same but one with the 2391 and one with the 2394/5, I would have to lean towards choosing the one with the 2394/5 just because I know through my own experience the difference. I passed my 2391 almost straight after finishing college with a mark of 86% and even then I found it to be a breeze, I passed my 2394 and 2395 at the start of this year and I struggled with one or two on the 2395 written. I passed my 2395 with a mark of 72%, not good in my opinion. To be fair though, some of the questions are worded rather oddly. Even still, I don't believe in any way that this qual separates the wheat from the chaff, too many 5WWs out there passing them. Equally as baffling is that the pass rate is based on prior performance. Last year, the pass mark required for the 2395 written was 65%, this year it was 55%?!?!? The 2391 at the time I took it required only 50% correct answers in the exam! This to me says that even though only 30% of electricians go on to pass the 2391/2395 first time, out of that 30%, potentially they only know 50% of what they should!

Given the previously mentioned situation, two sparks, one job. If one had the 2391 or 2395 and the other didn't, instead they had the 2396... Well, the choice would be an easy one for me. The 2391 and/or 2395 are in the same boat as the 2382 to me. Given enough retakes, any old muppet can pass them.

That's my two cents anyway

The 2391 pass mark has never been revealed, nor do you get told of your pass mark so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Dubbo]

The 2391 pass mark has never been revealed, nor do you get told of your pass mark so I don't know what you're talking about.

I was told you can get feed back from C&G about exam you just have to pay a fee for it

 

[D Skelton]

The 2391 pass mark has never been revealed, nor do you get told of your pass mark so I don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, you're quite correct. I am a liar. I shall go now and hang my head in shame.

Idiot.

 

[Englishman]

Yes, you're quite correct. I am a liar. I shall go now and hang my head in shame.

Idiot.

I think you are tbh.

Also, what you say about them changing pass marks is complete crap IMO as it deems the qualification worthless if one year, god knows how many people who get less than, say, 75% all fail yet the next exam, you only need to get 60%.

And nobody would retake an exam for fun or because it's now a bit different.

You're talking out your arse.

 

[Amp David]

The 2391 pass mark has never been revealed, nor do you get told of your pass mark so I don't know what you're talking about.

Just what I was getting at earlier.

 

[Sparkie30]

Yes, you're quite correct. I am a liar. I shall go now and hang my head in shame.

Idiot.

so how did you find out your pass mark? come on share it

 

[D Skelton]

I think you are tbh.

Also, what you say about them changing pass marks is complete crap IMO as it deems the qualification worthless if one year, god knows how many people who get less than, say, 75% all fail yet the next exam, you only need to get 60%.

And nobody would retake an exam for fun or because it's now a bit different.

You're talking out your arse.

You clearly know nothing then about how city and guilds and their exams work. You do realise it isn't C&G that actually mark the paers don't you??? Funny how you can accuse me of talking out my behind when you know nothing about me or even the way things work at the guild. Clearly just a no-mark with nothing better to do with your time than to bait other members of a forum with rude remarks. Well, I aint biting, welcome to my blocked list.

 

[D Skelton]

​

so how did you find out your pass mark? come on share it

I know the guy who marked them. It really isn't an exciting story.

 

[Englishman]

so how did you find out your pass mark? come on share it

He's one of these people who talks about knowing everything yet refuses to explain it other than he "knows someone"

Obviously this person he knows only tells him and nobody else. 2391 has been going about 20 years, yet he knows the pass marks and how much he got. And all this rubbish about fluctuating pass grades is crap as well.

And he reckons that he passed it and then just decided to do the 2395 for the sake of it? Absolute rubbish. Be he's passed neither. I notice that he put that there are plenty of very good testers with neither qualification as well.....

 

[shagbite]

He's one of these people who talks about knowing everything yet refuses to explain it other than he "knows someone"

Obviously this person he knows only tells him and nobody else. 2391 has been going about 20 years, yet he knows the pass marks and how much he got. And all this rubbish about fluctuating pass grades is crap as well.

And he reckons that he passed it and then just decided to do the 2395 for the sake of it? Absolute rubbish. Be he's passed neither.

I notice that he put that there are plenty of very good testers with neither qualification as well...

..

what's wrong with that? i know loads of competent testers who've never done 2391/94/95.

 

[Englishman]

what's wrong with that? i know loads of competent testers who've never done 2391/94/95.

Was more referring to the fact that he is sitting there telling us that he's taken and passed all of it and that he knows everything about it that makes me think he has neither.

 

[shagbite]

not sure why you think he'd want to lie about it. it's not like he's telling us he nailed linda lusardi back in '85. and it's not beyond reason that he knows someone who marks the papers - those fellas have got to have some friends.

fluctuating pass marks i have no knowledge of. you seem to have a strong opinion on the matter though - what evidence do you have that this doesn't happen? if you're gonna slag someone off for not providing evidence to support their claims, you should have your own proof to support your own.

 

[Aindowsimon]

How can a test be split in 2 (2391) and the subsequent two tests be harder with only half the syllabus for each test ??

 

[GLENNSPARK]

fight fight fight fight....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

not sure why you think he'd want to lie about it. it's not like he's telling us he nailed linda lusardi back in '85. and it's not beyond reason that he knows someone who marks the papers - those fellas have got to have some friends.

fluctuating pass marks i have no knowledge of. you seem to have a strong opinion on the matter though - what evidence do you have that this doesn't happen? if you're gonna slag someone off for not providing evidence to support their claims, you should have your own proof to support your own.

no...it was me....

 

[SJD]

not sure why you think he'd want to lie about it. it's not like he's telling us he nailed linda lusardi back in '85. and it's not beyond reason that he knows someone who marks the papers - those fellas have got to have some friends.

fluctuating pass marks i have no knowledge of. you seem to have a strong opinion on the matter though - what evidence do you have that this doesn't happen? if you're gonna slag someone off for not providing evidence to support their claims, you should have your own proof to support your own.

Possibly a tutor at a college, taking the new exams just because is exactly what the tutors at the college I went to did? It doesn't cost them much or anything, and the colleges often do get to know more about the marks than the students get told (sometimes they can be persuaded to divulge some details, I found).

 

[Aindowsimon]

2391 was a good test with a great course ! Witch I found invaluable . I would consider these 94/95 things in future as a refresher almost ?

 

[DNS1]

C'mon Eng?! Didn't you know that the domestic regs are different to the commercial regs?!

Well it's bloody true!

Three quarters of 7671 are completely irrelevant to domestic installations!

Ironically, I was in a major car parts factory today (IAC in Birmingham). Not as an electrician, I'm a freelance sound engineer for a firm in Essex and we got contracted to provide audio/visual for a speech to the workforce by the chief exec.

I spent a fair bit of my day right next to a massive DB and naturally took a look at it. A few 800A breakers which took a big guy using both hands to reset, and a bloody huge rotary switch which could have done anything... I wouldn't have had a clue what does what...

Just because I don't know industrial and commercial electrics, doesn't mean that I don't know domestic electrics inside out...

 

[Sparkie30]

I know the guy who marked them. It really isn't an exciting story.

Fair enough, no wonder you passed !! lol

 

[Engineer54]

Well it's bloody true!

Three quarters of 7671 are completely irrelevant to domestic installations!

Ironically, I was in a major car parts factory today (IAC in Birmingham). Not as an electrician, I'm a freelance sound engineer for a firm in Essex and we got contracted to provide audio/visual for a speech to the workforce by the chief exec.

I spent a fair bit of my day right next to a massive DB and naturally took a look at it. A few 800A breakers which took a big guy using both hands to reset, and a bloody huge rotary switch which could have done anything... I wouldn't have had a clue what does what...

Just because I don't know industrial and commercial electrics, doesn't mean that I don't know domestic electrics inside out...

If anything i would say the opposite, 7671 is firmly based around the smaller electrical installations rather than commercial/industrial installations of any size....

Wrong, ....exactly the same rules apply in the majority of instances!! Just because breakers and switches etc are that much bigger, doesn't mean the rules covering those breakers etc, change.

 

[Silly Sausage]

I know the guy who marked them. It really isn't an exciting story.

And did he tell you how most exam papers are marked?!

re your earlier posts, well aren't you the lucky one getting freebies!
99.99% of everyone else has to pay full wack.

 

[D Skelton]

And did he tell you how most exam papers are marked?!

No, I know that anyway. C&G have model answers, if the answers on the test sheet don't match up, they don't get a point.

re your earlier posts, well aren't you the lucky one getting freebies!
99.99% of everyone else has to pay full wack.

I don't really consider myself to be hugely privelidged?! I just happen to know someone. I guess if I didn't I'd have to fork out the huge price tag of £20 to get my mark percentage!! This isn't some massive conspiracy, I get the feeling that people somehow think I'm special, like I'm the only one who's ever known a college tutor or a C&G EV???

I like to think that taking your post with a pinch of sarcasm is the right thing to do?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Just a smidge of sarcasm!!!

I just think you are wrong in saying you need to take the latest version of a qualification you've already got.
One studies and passes courses at the time, then move on and keep up to date.
Everyone would be continually retaking exams otherwise!
The C&G money counters eyes will be lighting up big time if they see your point of view!!!

 

[D Skelton]

I just think you are wrong in saying you need to take the latest version of a qualification you've already got.

Not at all! If anyone has the 2391 already the 2395 is pointless unless you can get it ridiculously cheap and/or you anticipate teaching it at some point. All I was doing was throwing my opinion in about the difference between the two.

Personally, and this is my own opinion, I think the 2394/5 is a slightly superior qualification however money wise, at their normal price they are a rip off.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Personally, and this is my own opinion, I think the 2394/5 is a slightly superior qualification however money wise, at their normal price they are a rip off.

We could go round in circles here!!!

Why do you think the new numbered qual is better, because the questions are harder?
2391 was tough, the theory of I&T hasn't changed, so more lads can fail?

It's like I think everyones been had with the regs test. You've passed the test how to look up the answers in the back of a coloured book, why the f... should you have to do it again when it changes colour!!!

 

[bartkusal]

Reffering to Post 57

Well said mate, its shocking how he is slating the D Skelton, seems very personal an all, I don’t think he would of said what he said straight into his face. He wouldn’t to me that’s for sure.

And as I said before, yes the pass % is fluctuating dependant how good or bad the people taking the exam doing at this particular date don’t forget that they have to eliminate someone it’s all regulated. It fluctuates between 60%- 80%

Ok, I very carefully saying fallowing, I was told by lecturer/examiner about all this in secretive way, and I had no reason to think that he is lying to me, especially when it all makes clear sense.

And now I am going to hide, because THE GREAT ENGLISHMEN will be after me now.
So if you don’t hear from me anymore, I am dead.

 

[D Skelton]

We could go round in circles here!!!

Why do you think the new numbered qual is better, because the questions are harder?
2391 was tough, the theory of I&T hasn't changed, so more lads can fail?

It's like I think everyones been had with the regs test. You've passed the test how to look up the answers in the back of a coloured book, why the f... should you have to do it again when it changes colour!!!

I think the new qual is SlIGHTLY superior for one reason alone. Part of the written is based upon an actual installation instead of being a randomly generated set of questions. The answers require a lot more 'punch' so to speak. Unlike the 2391, some of the answers require a bit more than just a regurgitation of GN3. I wouldn't say the new qual is harder or easier in fact, but you do have to get into the mindset of the chump at C&G who wrote the questions, which can be a bit of a ball ache. There are pros and cons to both I suppose. Like I said tho, to the average jobbing spark, the 2391 offered far superior value for money!

I do want to make clear that I am not in any way saying that I want the 2394/5 to actually replace the 2391! That would be idiotic.

 

[rompling]

Not going into any of the slanging but was one of the last"intake " to pass the 2391 last year and I was told the "industry " thought not enough people were passing the 2391 and asked for 2 exams slightly easier enabling higher pass rates
Btw this link gives the city and guilds pass rate for the 2391 - doesn't look like a high pass rate to me
http://cdn.cityandguilds.com/ProductDocuments/Building_Services_Industry/Electrical_Installation/2391/Additional_documents/2391-301_Chief_Examiners_Report_July_2012.pdf

 

[silverfox1]

I think the low pass rate linked to 2391 can be attributed partly to the candidates taking the course, because you need 2391 to become a JIB approved spark and get the extra pay a lot of sparks did it for just that reason the gold card and better wages, also the company picked up the bill so they were not out of pocket, they were not interested in inspection and testing had no intention of going down that route it is the only way to get gold card. I know many sparks with 2391 who have not picked up a tester since they passed . So with reference to my last point at least 94/95 would show recent testing experience although as D Skelton said in an earlier post there are many good testers without either.

 

[shagbite]

you don't need 2391 to get a gold card. the gold card is for bog standard electricians, not approved.

 

[silverfox1]

you don't need 2391 to get a gold card. the gold card is for bog standard electricians, not approved.

I stand corrected . Ok to get JIB approved card you need 2391 and hence a better rate of pay.

 

[D Skelton]

The reason for the low pass rate is because the 2391 was more often than not a bolt on to an 18 day course. There is no way the majority of people taking these Electrical Trainee courses could hope to pass the 2391 after such a brief introduction to the trade. To any spark who has spent three years at college however, the 2391 would more often than not be a breeze considering every full qualification will have had a T&I element in it very similar to the 2391 which would have had to have been passed to gain the qualification in the first place.

The percentage of people passing the 2391 ten years ago was very high so I'm told. Just goes to show how dumbed down the industry has become.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I didn't start the 2391, I just used the exam papers to practice for the 2395, there's no 2395 papers available yet as its still a relatively new exam. I haven't done the 2394 yet
I'm not saying that the 2395 is harder than the 2391, just that it's not much easier

Revision material from past papers of the 2394 and 2395 is out there and available.

You just need to know who to ask.

 

[D Skelton]

Revision material from past papers of the 2394 and 2395 is out there and available.

You just need to know who to ask.

You can't possibly know anyone like that! 2395 papers aren't available! You're a liar!!! Arrrgh!!

 

[7029 dave]

bloke I knew had jib approved card, and never done any quals in his life, along time ago, but he was still graded!!.