Dodgy trade pictures for your amusement! - 1 Million Views!

[ipf]

That's pretty tidy.
But speaking as someone who's installed a few network points over the years, it really pees me off when I've gone to great lengths to keep the network cabling separate from mains wiring - only to find the ****ing sparkies have gone and mixed there's in with mine ?

Can't say network 'engineers' work to anything like our regs, to tell the truth.
Admittedly, standards are falling badly all round but comparing some of the thrown in bunches of IT cables with mains installs is, in general, a bit of a joke.

 

[freddo]

I've always found it the other way round tbh

Network and alarm guys piggybacking on the electrical installation and paralleling with mains cabling

Yep, we installed some steel conduit recently above an office ceiling for door access. The wiring in this office in installed to a very high standard and I intend to keep it that way. Steel conduit and trunking is used throughout the building, partly as the risk of fire and explosion is quite high, the nearby plant equipment operating at ridiculously high temperatures and pressures The door access was installed to a very poor standard, cables chucked over the ceiling grid, wires poked through gaps in walls where steel trunking passes through, mismatching accessories and surface boxes. They have run a load of network cables for IP cameras, I didn't want to look at how those were installed above the ceiling last time I was there.

 

[James]

I thought all network engineers worked to this sort of standard ????

 

[freddo]

Now let's see the other side of those patch panels when everything is connected! The test seems to be, it's all good if you can get the door to close...

 

[telectrix]

New posts

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I thought all network engineers worked to this sort of standard ????

 

[westward10]

Yep, we installed some steel conduit recently above an office ceiling for door access. The wiring in this office in installed to a very high standard and I intend to keep it that way. Steel conduit and trunking is used throughout the building, partly as the risk of fire and explosion is quite high, the nearby plant equipment operating at ridiculously high temperatures and pressures The door access was installed to a very poor standard, cables chucked over the ceiling grid, wires poked through gaps in walls where steel trunking passes through, mismatching accessories and surface boxes. They have run a load of network cables for IP cameras, I didn't want to look at how those were installed above the ceiling last time I was there.
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Funnily enough I rewired one of these in a school a couple of weeks ago. They had a run of 40 odd meters in 0.50 flex slung across the roof voids, crazy thing you can walk around the voids and like yours it is all steel trunking in the voids with a route direct from the board to where it needed to be, rewired in about two hours using the trunkings already in situ.

 

[freddo]

Reminds me of another site, we tidied all the wiring up. Lashed in cabling was replaced with steel conduit, cables tied to overhead steel conduits were removed or installed inside the conduits. We removed the redundant circuits which left quite a large amount of space in trunkings and several 32 and 25mm conduits that spanned the room ended up empty. A tenant moved in and wiring was installed by cable tying it to the trunking and empty conduits. SMFH. I wish I could find photos of the existing conduit, a work of art. The conduit system must have been installed complete, starting at one corner. So carefully planned that there were no running couplers needed.

 

[Simon47]

I thought all network engineers worked to this sort of standard ????

Some of us do, or did, I'm not in that line any more.
At one client, I got handed this by the sparkies (they gave the network cable to the apprentice to do, totally unsupervised, and with even less clue than he had supervision) :

And managed to unravel it all, work out which was which (badly or not marked at all), and eventually turned it into this. I normally put the panels at the top of the rack, but there were a few cables "a bit short" - while there was another that went all the way to the far end of the building and half way back ?

This was the back of the panels for the phones (in house at a previous job) - mix of proprietary digital, analogue, and ISDN-2

Now let's see the other side of those patch panels when everything is connected! The test seems to be, it's all good if you can get the door to close...

Better without doors IMO. Front of the in-house panels above - and all the cables colour coded (green for phones, blue for serial, yellow for network) and all recorded in a database. Not long after I left, someone decided that was too hard, ditched the database, and used all black patch leads (and didn't even route them neatly) !

With one client (a business centre), they had a right 'kin mess. We quoted to tidy it all up (we already did their IT), but the owner decided someone else was cheaper. To be fair, the other lot did a decent job, all nicely correct length patch cables, and all neatly cable tied together ? Yep it was nice and tidy. But I suspect that anyone with half a clue about structured cabling will be ahead of me as to the effect on being able to actually move anything ?

But yes, sometimes you can shut the doors ... almost (front side of the client job above). But all that does is keep the heat in.

f'knows what it looks like now, I'm sure they'll have had some 'kin cowboy sparkies in to add data points since I was last involved.

We removed the redundant circuits which left quite a large amount of space in trunkings

Well there's one thing clients rarely want to pay for. It's a common problem to find that ducts etc are full - but no-one has a clue what's still in use and what can be ripped out. To do it safely usually means starting at the ends (i.e. where you know cables are terminated), and cutting them back as you go.
I suppose you could apply the Nakatomi Tower technique and then sort out what's not working ?
At a previous job we had a client who was a science park. They'll have that problem soon, if they don't already. They went through a phase where the park management didn't care who ran private cables between offices using the site ducting - and kept no records.

A tenant moved in and wiring was installed by cable tying it to the trunking and empty conduits. SMFH. I wish I could find photos of the existing conduit, a work of art.

We once got a job where there was segregated trunking, conduit drops to each outlet, etc. But we were told we were explicitly not allowed to touch the trunking as they'd had BT in to install their cabling and they weren't prepared to risk any "finger pointing" in the event of problems. So we were using the drops in the walls, but cutting into the trunking to get the cables out above the ceiling and running them where we could. Clients eh !

 

[Mikegh]

Very good standard of work there

One thing that always puzzled me about data cables was multicompartment pvc trunking

It's functional but it's designed to parallel mains and data cabling which isn't really what you want to be doing

Prob no other option for most surface work

 

[freddo]

I've installed screened PVC trunking before, the data compartment was coated with copper. Super expensive.

 

[Mikegh]

I've installed screened PVC trunking before, the data compartment was coated with copper. Super expensive.

Yes and obviously u can get screened data cable too

The advice given to me though was not to use it unless specifically requested, dunno how accurate that is

I used to do just 1st fixes back to comms cabinets and basic laying of cabling

 

[Skys]

Same office block as last night. This place is terrible.?

 

[ipf]

Same office block as last night. This place is terrible.?

I suppose that's one reason why we install fire alarms ?

 

[rsgaz]

Same office block as last night. This place is terrible.

Looking at the loose bits of yellow tape underneath, someone has already been back to "fix" that, I'd say!! ?

 

[MJPD29]

Can't say network 'engineers' work to anything like our regs, to tell the truth.
Admittedly, standards are falling badly all round but comparing some of the thrown in bunches of IT cables with mains installs is, in general, a bit of a joke.

Engineer is an extremely loose term sometimes

 

[Mikegh]

Engineer is an extremely loose term sometimes

I see a lot.of contractors when they scale up they suddenly become an engineering firm not to mention dropping the first name

So they start off as "Mikey Smith Electrical "

And then they change up to "Smith Engineering"

 

[Electrics]

I see a lot.of contractors when they scale up they suddenly become an engineering firm not to mention dropping the first name

So they start off as "Mikey Smith Electrical "

And then they change up to "Smith Engineering"

To be honest it's nice to see people not just using the 'First three initials + electric(al)' formula. I bet there's about 2000 'JBL Electrical's in the UK.

 

[Raptor0014]

The story behind this. It’s a sub main from the main CU in a empty rental property.

I’m not quite sure but I think this is known as the “F*ck it, I’ll use the Australia method as I don’t know what I’m doing’!

I’m actually impressed someone could mess it up that bad. ?

 

[Dustydazzler]

Im guessing that the power coming in is via the furthest right hand side breaker...

That is a special kind of badgers arse consumer unit , that is so bad its actually quite funny

 

[Electrics]

View attachment 89126

The story behind this. It’s a sub main from the main CU in a empty rental property.

I’m not quite sure but I think this is known as the “F*ck it, I’ll use the Australia method as I don’t know what I’m doing’!

I’m actually impressed someone could mess it up that bad. ?

Surprised everything still operates. Is that some chewing gum they've left on the misplaced bus bar?

 

[Raptor0014]

Im guessing that the power coming in is via the furthest right hand side breaker...

That is a special kind of badgers arse consumer unit , that is so bad its actually quite funny

Correct

It is fed from a 32a MCB in the main CU but this is where the right way of doing it stops.
Live is then fed to the far right 32a MCB in this board, with a link back to the RCD, the neutral is direct to the RCD. And every circuit is fed upside down.

Impressive to get it that wrong. ?

 

[Dustydazzler]

The only thing that could have made this installation funnier is if they threw away the busbar and used tiny little 1.5mm cable links to hop between the tops of each mcb

 

[Mikegh]

I can't make any sense of that

Looks like the outgoing side is supplying the incoming side of RCD

 

[Raptor0014]

View attachment 89126

Surprised everything still operates. Is that some chewing gum they've left on the misplaced bus bar?

I did think that when I first opened it up.
It’s a bit of mortar that’s dropped in the excessive opening at the top.

Aside from that is directly exposed, looks like a snake mating ball and needs to be in a wiring centre.

They have cut the earth from the stop cock (just inside the wall to the right) so there is now no earth to any of the pipes in the property. They choc-bloc it into the heating system to give that an earth (I think the plumber might have had a go here). I tested all the pipes I could read with my wander lead and none got anywhere near the 0.05ohm allowance. Lowest I got was 13.6

But at least they cut the earth off the metal sink/drainer as it wouldn’t have worked anyway. ?

 

[Raptor0014]

I can't make any sense of that

Looks like the outgoing side is supplying the incoming side of RCD

My first words when I opened it up where ‘what the actual F!’

 

[Dustydazzler]

That job has builders wiring written all over it

The 15a connector block wiring bodge is an absolute prime example of a builders calling card

 

[Electrics]

I can't make any sense of that

Looks like the outgoing side is supplying the incoming side of RCD

I reckon it's someone from Europe - over there you feed the tops and the load comes out the bottom.

 

[timhoward]

Correct

It is fed from a 32a MCB in the main CU but this is where the right way of doing it stops.
Live is then fed to the far right 32a MCB in this board, with a link back to the RCD, the neutral is direct to the RCD. And every circuit is fed upside down.

Impressive to get it that wrong. ?

I think that's the best one yet or at least for a long while.
That would have made an excellent game of "find the incoming supply". May I steal this photo for training purposes?!
I'd found the live, but still can't totally fathom the Neutral as it looks like the bottom left of the RCD goes straight to the N bar....

 

[Raptor0014]

.

 

[Raptor0014]

My first words when I opened it up where ‘what the actual F!’

I think that's the best one yet or at least for a long while.
That would have made an excellent game of "find the incoming supply". May I steal this photo for training purposes?!
I'd found the live, but still can't totally fathom the Neutral as it looks like the bottom left of the RCD goes straight to the N bar....

Of course, feel free.

I haven't touched that board yet. I've got to go back later in the week. So will fathom out how it is wired.

Property has 2 CU's. Both have 10 circuits. All 20 circuits are not labelled. So I spent 5hrs yesterday playing my favourite game of hunt the circuit for the first CU. Only reason I had the cover off was to see which MCB from the main CU fed that one.

 

[littlespark]

Maybe someone used to 3 phase boards where the busbar goes in the top of the breaker.

they must have thought really hard to get that to work…. Would have been easier on the brain cells to do it right in the first place.

 

[timhoward]

I can't make any sense of that

Looks like the outgoing side is supplying the incoming side of RCD

I think I've got it...it only makes sense if there's a break in the bus bar behind the mortar though.
Otherwise the RCD would trip if the far right breaker that reverse feeds the non-protected half was on.
Special!

 

[brianmoooore]

So the CU has no main switch? The RH MCB serves as the nearest thing to a main switch?
I still can't make sense of it.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I reckon it's someone from Europe - over there you feed the tops and the load comes out the bottom.

I have it on good authority from both Legrand and Hager that their MCB's can be used in both directions.

Looking at the gap between the two MCB's below the mortar snot, it would seem the busbar is not continuous as suggested by Tim.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Eureka , I have the solution to this abomination

Unscrew it from the wall and flip it 180 degrees then screw it back to the wall

 

[westward10]

I wouldn't even consider rectifying that, off the wall and a new unit fitted.

 

[timhoward]

Yeah, new CU. The other immediate thought is max demand / upstream protection given ?6mm incoming conductors. Hope it's SWA. Also might be a 2.5mm in a B32. Anyway, lots to investigate!

 

[Mike Johnson]

I think a new board is a bit extreme, especially if it's not damaged, (can't see the lid) Legrand is a very good quality product, re-wiring of the board is possibly all that is needed.

As a secondary board does it need a main switch, if all the circuits are protected by an RCD? Certainly in Europe the main board would cover that, it is now a requirement not to have a secondary board supplied from an RCD, but from a cut out switch and an RCD in the secondary board.

 

[Electrics]

I wouldn't even consider rectifying that, off the wall and a new unit fitted.

Why? Doesn't seem a lot wrong with the actual board it's just the wiring that's hilariously crap. Unless customer wants an RCBO board it just seems like an extra £100 for a new unit plus the work of getting it on the wall for no real benefit imo.

 

[westward10]

If I'm putting my name to it that would be gone and replaced, cost to the client wouldn't concern me.

 

[timhoward]

As a secondary board does it need a main switch, if all the circuits are protected by an RCD?

You'd want one isolation point on the board for the whole thing. At present not everything is hanging off the RCD.

I agree Legrand is decent kit, though can be pricey to get parts for.
I guess you could shove it all along and fit the correct isolator, and reconfigure it correctly. But in the case the board is probably the last thing to consider, as I'd have inquisitive questions about some of the final circuits first which may require a different selection of MCB's / RCBO's to solve, leading to new CU for other reasons.

 

[Simon47]

Very good standard of work there

Thanks, I try (or as I said, used to try). Used to get people saying I'm very trying ?

One thing that always puzzled me about data cables was multicompartment pvc trunking
It's functional but it's designed to parallel mains and data cabling which isn't really what you want to be doing

It's quite common for dado trunking etc. TBH it's not that big of a problem as many uses (ethernet, phone) is designed to be interference tolerant - twisted pairs using differential signalling. The main thing is the physical segregation for electrical safety which was certainly part of the rules for phone cabling when that side of things started getting deregulated.

My biggest bugbear is where the sparkies do all the containment but simply don't care and don't think about the space needed. One job I recall, the guy's work was very good - nice and neat. But he was clueless about a few things which showed that he was really just doing it by the numbers. And he had the cheek to say it must be nice when someone else does all the hard work for you !
Run down the wall of a smallish office, total of 24 points, Rehau trunking which is nice as the lower section is part of the main structure and forms a trough that cables will sit in - as compared with most makes where you have to persuade cables to hang uphill while you get the lower cover on ? But the guy had taken the big space for a couple of RFCs and a bonding conductor, leaving me only the small top section to fit in the 24 network cables and a multi-pair phone cable. Had to give up and route the phone cable elsewhere. The guy was adamant that a) there was no separator available to make the lower section into a third compartment (I looked it up later, there was), and b) that only the larger middle section could be used for power because otherwise the insulation wouldn't work ? Seriously there are sparkies out there who believe that an insulating barrier in such trunking is directional.
The only time I've seen an issue using the middle section for other than power is that some trunking has open-backed mounting frames for sockets - so the back of power sockets would be open to whatever cables run behind. But even those (from memory) had the option of closed boxes.

The other bugbear was where the sparkies ran the cables, and as illustrated, DGAS about keeping them organised, labelling them, or even making them long enough. I had one job where there was a cable that was just 6 inch sticking out of the wall and I had to extend about 10% of them to reach the rack. It's the "I'll be gone and been paid before the next guy comes along" attitude.

I have it on good authority from both Legrand and Hager that their MCB's can be used in both directions.

That was my thought as well - it's AC, the current goes both ways by definition. It's hard to imagine how you could built a device like this that didn't work either way round.

 

[Electrics]

If I'm putting my name to it that would be gone and replaced, cost to the client wouldn't concern me.

Why? There's nothing wrong with the unit or the breakers. What would be the reason you'd get rid of them rather than just rewire it properly?

 

[westward10]

Why? There's nothing wrong with the unit or the breakers. What would be the reason you'd get rid of them rather than just rewire it properly?

It has been modified outside of the manufacturers recommendations and I would not be interested in reinstating it.

 

[brianmoooore]

That was my thought as well - it's AC, the current goes both ways by definition. It's hard to imagine how you could built a device like this that didn't work either way round.

The electrical characteristics of the device don't care, but the mechanical ones might. The top terminal will need to be capable of accepting a busbar, and the bottom, a cable.

 

[Electrics]

It has been modified outside of the manufacturers recommendations and I would not be interested in reinstating it.

What the actual board/MCB's have? Where?

I'm not trying to be argumentative i genuinely can't see how there's anything wrong with the board. You'll be stripping everything out to change the board anyway, so just strip it out and then put it back correctly. No difference, less cost, less work. ?‍

 

[westward10]

What the actual board/MCB's have? Where?

I'm not trying to be argumentative i genuinely can't see how there's anything wrong with the board. You'll be stripping everything out to change the board anyway, so just strip it out and then put it back correctly. No difference, less cost, less work. ?‍

Do you what it's original configuration was from that picture.

 

[Electrics]

Do you what it's original configuration was from that picture.

If you strip everything out you just have an RCD, MCB's, earth and neutral bars. Could you explain more what the problem is because i'm not getting it. I'm a soon-to-be trainee and eager to learn.

 

[westward10]

If you strip everything out you just have an RCD, MCB's, earth and neutral bars. Could you explain more what the problem is because i'm not getting it. I'm a soon-to-be trainee and eager to learn.

There may well never be an issue if you reconfigure it but for my professional integrity I want something, that if it goes wrong then I hopefully have the manufacturer to fall back on.
If I was asked to fit a consumer unit and someone produced that from the back of a van then I would walk away.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Just stick the thing on Ebay and it will probably sell for 40-50 quid easy