Need some advice please

[Wilko]

Completely unacceptable to not be allowed access and inspection prior to lease signing and would be cause to break lease in my humble opinion. If the contract is not signed then don't. For sure the building has wiring faults which may be dangerous and you / your family would be forced to fix them prior to opening for business. Ask solicitor if he'd like to stump up for the repairs bill and he might start to take an interest

 

[1Justin]

There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

A circuit is defined by the circuit breaker, NOT the number of cables

How do you know that 2 cables in a 32A breaker isn't a ring?

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Completely unacceptable to not be allowed access and inspection prior to lease signing and would be cause to break lease in my humble opinion. If the contract is not signed then don't. For sure the building has wiring faults which may be dangerous and you / your family would be forced to fix them prior to opening for business. Ask solicitor if he'd like to stump up for the repairs bill and he might start to take an interest

Exactly! The whole thing stinks.

I suggested they null the contract and hand back the keys.
They were supposed to open in a couple of weeks, now it seems like they won't be able to open until at least February 2018.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.

Well said and very true. This appears to be the case my wife's cousin is having right now.

I only saw the EICR yesterday and sighed.
Gave them the low down and now a can of worms has opened.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

What is the period of the long term lease?

10 years.

 

[Octopus]

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

Why not? all depends on the size of the cu, the load on the circuit?

How can you be so sure?

still very smelly

 

[Midwest]

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

I do have to repeat myself, you've come here for advice, and admittedly you'll suffer a little banter & critic, but that's what advice seeking is about. The members here have lots of experience in these and similar matters, doesn't help by being a little bit abrasive yourself. Perhaps you'll doing the same to the solicitor who you suggest has poorly advised your cousin?

Anyway I'm offski!

 

[ipf]

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

I'm presuming it hasn't been rewired, just added to.

Have you tested to see if there is no completed ring or found other definite evidence that the two legs are not joined?

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Okay, but if those circuits functioned as part of one area, one floor for example, that could be deemed acceptable. So to clarify, all the lighting for the property is controlled from one device?

Incidentally, you've come on here for advice, it doesn't bode well trying to be patronising, not withstanding you will get criticism. Just trying to be of assistance.

No, the lighting has been JB'd all over the place.
It has 3 cables in one RCBO. One up/one down, and one for the rear of the building. (I pulled them out one by one and switched on the lighting) + There is a bank of redundant switches that is no longer in use. the place is a mess.

I'm not trying to patronise anyone mate and I'm glad of the help

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

I do have to repeat myself, you've come here for advice, and admittedly you'll suffer a little banter & critic, but that's what advice seeking is about. The members here have lots of experience in these and similar matters, doesn't help by being a little bit abrasive yourself. Perhaps you'll doing the same to the solicitor who you suggest has poorly advised your cousin?

Anyway I'm offski!

Haha. Don't take it personally. Blame my parents for my dry sense of humour.

I'd say the solicitor know exactly what he was doing to make sure the landlord wasn't out of pocket for long. If the contract doesn't get renewed he doesn't get paid.

Thanks for your input BTW.

 

[Stspark]

Get a local spark in, complete an EICR then go from there. A rewire may not be needed, just fault finding and perhaps some additional circuits. If the lease contract stated, as you say 'new occupier to complete building works' then hire a electrical contractor of your choice and not the landlords handyman.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

I'm presuming it hasn't been rewired, just added to.

Have you tested to see if there is no completed ring or found other definite evidence that the two legs are not joined?

No it hasn't been rewired.
It's had new wiring JB'd to the older existing wiring.

Old colours at the board to 2 sockets (Thought it was a ring to start off with) Then new colours at other sockets, then old colour radials at other sockets. All on the same circuit.

It's definitely 2 radials in one RCBO but all joined together under the floor. Had one of the JB's exposed under the floor yesterday.
Not a pretty sight.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Get a local spark in, complete an EICR then go from there. A rewire may not be needed, just fault finding and perhaps some additional circuits. If the lease contract stated, as you say 'new occupier to complete building works' then hire a electrical contractor of your choice and not the landlords handyman.

Thanks.

I get the feeling the landlord would prefer a handyman due to cost.
He's said he is willing to foot the bill for the rewire, yeah right.

I've told my wife's cousin to stand his ground if the landlord insists on having his own handymen.

Why the regs are lenient for commercial property beggars belief.

 

[ipf]

No it hasn't been rewired.
It's had new wiring JB'd to the older existing wiring.

Old colours at the board to 2 sockets (Thought it was a ring to start off with) Then new colours at other sockets, then old colour radials at other sockets. All on the same circuit.

It's definitely 2 radials in one RCBO but all joined together under the floor. Had one of the JB's exposed under the floor yesterday.
Not a pretty sight.

Seems like a real mess.....but, if the radials are joined under the floor, there will be some sort of ring.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Seems like a real mess.....but, if the radials are joined under the floor, there will be some sort of ring.

It is. It used to be a house. It's one of those minimal 70's installations when all the occupier had was a TV, radio and washing machine.

If you saw it you'd know what I mean. Has rewire written all over it.

It only appears to be a ring because both radials are in the same RCBO back at the CU. Disconnect one leg and half of what seemed to be a ring go off.

Unless you removed the socket faces and carried out some proper testing the average Joe would never know.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Why not? all depends on the size of the cu, the load on the circuit?

How can you be so sure?

still very smelly

You're pulling my balls aren't you

Yes it's smelly because the Landlord knew what work needed doing prior to the contract being signed + they had a survey beforehand.

Bearing in mind their solicitor would have know what work needed doing because he had the report, but nothing was said.

 

[westward10]

Why don't you take up Tels offer in #6 that way you will get a proper opinion from a highly respected forum member. Without pics or seeing the EICR no one can really give a valid opinion and arguing as to whether three wires should be on one rcbo is quite frankly pointless.

 

[telectrix]

pm sent to OP.

 

[elsparko]

condemn the building and walk away knowing you at least tried

 

[telectrix]

condemn the building and walk away knowing you at least tried

defeatist.

 

[elsparko]

defeatist.

its saturday evening

 

[telectrix]

its saturday evening

OMG. and it's past beer o'clock. brb.

 

[elsparko]

tell the owner that there is ghosts/aliens in the building and it should be sealed off, advise they call derek acora

 

[elsparko]

 

[Wilko]

A bit different from Mary, Mary Quite Contrary ...

 

[telectrix]

Mary Hinge?

 

[elsparko]

Mary Hinge?

not sure on her surname but we do know what she loves

 

[PEG]

Somewhere,on another forum,a "spark" is asking why a board he fitted,in an old property,is letting go on the sockets,when loaded up...

He needs answers,due to a lease being imminent...

 

[Octopus]

For the benefit of Joe Public reading this thread this, its worth remembering:

• Post 2015 an EICR is a document containing 8 plus pages.
• Removing "random" cables from breakers does not constitute any form of formal testing.
• In my experience, socket circuits which are rings are more likely to have issues with poor connections, which make them "appear" to be radials - only proper testing can tell.
• If in doubt about the report, ask the contractor in writing for clarification and / or ask for a 2nd opinion.
• Asking random questions on a internet forum isn't likely to give definitive answers. Only site visits can do this
• Photographs help
• Costs vary tremendously across the UK, but a and EICR costing less than £100 probably isn't worth the paper its written on.

Thanks for reading

 

[westward10]

Where is there a requirement for eight pages.

 

[Octopus]

Where is there a requirement for eight pages.

I suppose that depends on what forms you use... the BYB condenses the information into 4 pages, plus the schedule of inspections so that makes 5 pages .

I use Shineforms, which means a site with 1 board and up to 12 circuits will be 8 pages ...

How many pages do your forms have?

 

[westward10]

Assuming one schedule the minimum is seven.

 

[Octopus]

Assuming one schedule the minimum is seven.

So 4 more than the OP claims to have then.

7 or more than......

 

[wsoppitt]

Sound to me that the issued eicr contains only the 2 pages of installation details and the schedule of test results and omitted the several pages of schedule of inspections thus having a failed outcome without any knowledge of what's contravined regs. Put another way the landlord doesn't want you to see all the remedial codes but cannot change the unsatisfactory result on the installation details pages without it being questioned.
That's my opinion anyway whether its right or wrong.

 

[JK-Electrical]

There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.

Alas, this is my experience too. I'm aware of "landlord safety certificates" and "landlord electrical certificates" being offered at £40. I'm also aware of a supposed electrician who claims that he can carry-out four EICRs a day. Seriously. I must be slowing-down badly in my old age as it takes me on average around four hours to do an EICR. It just isn't possible to carry-out four EICRs a day on domestic properties unless, of course, much of the testing is being omitted.

One rogue landlord offered me £50 to change a C2 code to a C3 so he could have the report signed-off as satisfactory! I told him where to go. Most landlords that I deal with take their responsibilities seriously and won't compromise the safety of their tenants to save themselves some money. But there are certainly rogues out there who are concerned only with making as much rental income as possible with minimum outlay.

 

[elsparko]

Alas, this is my experience too. I'm aware of "landlord safety certificates" and "landlord electrical certificates" being offered at £40. I'm also aware of a supposed electrician who claims that he can carry-out four EICRs a day. Seriously. I must be slowing-down badly in my old age as it takes me on average around four hours to do an EICR. It just isn't possible to carry-out four EICRs a day on domestic properties unless, of course, much of the testing is being omitted.

One rogue landlord offered me £50 to change a C2 code to a C3 so he could have the report signed-off as satisfactory! I told him where to go. Most landlords that I deal with take their responsibilities seriously and won't compromise the safety of their tenants to save themselves some money. But there are certainly rogues out there who are concerned only with making as much rental income as possible with minimum outlay.

not impossible if you ignore paperwork, i usually write down all my results on rough paper then type it all up at night in the comfort of my own home, hes forgetting that added hours at home typing it all up

 

[1Justin]

I quote a whole day for an EICR, and that's invariably full-on. I'm likely to still be doing the report at 11PM. It's a tough day.