Need some advice please

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Hello,

I'm retired from the game but decided to drop in and ask the good folks here a few questions regarding issues a family member is having. Hope someone can help.

My wife's cousin has just signed a lease for a property.
They haven't occupied the property as it needs cosmetic work doing.

The decorator comes and plugs in his wallpaper stripper and the power trips, and keeps tripping on all the sockets he tries.
He thinks the paper stripper is faulty so buys a new one, same thing happens and happens again with his kettle and other equipment.

The electrical certificate shows test results as 'passed' with a few Zs and R1+R2 tests but shows the installation is 'unsatisfactory' One snag with that, there is nothing on the cert that explains why the installation is unsatisfactory.

I take a nosey at the sockets and there are old red and black cables mixed with new colours. At first glance it looks like a ring main. Then I remove another few sockets and there are old coloured single 2.5mm cables one the one supposed ring main.

Without testing this suggests there are two radials in one RCBO with new coloured cables added on with JB's. Both 2.5 cables at the consumer unit are red and black. The lighting circuit has three old coloured 1mm cables in one 6A RCBO. The consumer is new-ish but has been opened up that many times the fixing screws for the board face have been turned to mince meat leaving it almost impossible to gain access (took a while to remove)
This along with the new 10mm earth bond to the incoming polythene water mains pipe made me think the local handyman had been in.

It needs a rewire but the landlord insists the Electrician who issued the 'unsatisfactory' certificate give a quote along with other Electricians they've asked to quote for the job.
Is this guy incompetent or just plain lazy when it comes to filling out certificates, and would you ask him to quote for a job?

Thanks.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Time to come clean .... Why are you getting quotes for a rewire of a property you don't own ......

I'm retired from Electrical contracting.

My wife's cousin has signed a long term lease on the building and was hoping to open the doors in a couple of weeks.
They had the decorators in, sockets started tripping.

Calls me asking for advice. I pop over for a look and give them the gory details. The building hasn't seen an Electrician or a proper tradesman since the 70's.

The contract wanted the new occupier to pay for any building work! Solicitor should have seen the word 'Unsatisfactory' on the EICR but has admitted he missed it!!!

Now I know why they didn't get the keys to the property before they signed the contract. It's a hovel.

 

[Midwest]

Nothing about 3 lighting cables in one RCBO, nothing about the visible damage, nothing about the installation not having a certificate even though the CU was changed, nothing about remedial work that was obvious. The visible problems alone would have set alarm bells ringing.

All I can say is that the report shows some testing. It says all testing passed. No floorboards were lifted and the condition of the installation is unsatisfactory. That's all he wrote, nothing else.
.

What's wrong with three lighting cables in one device. I've been to several properties with newish CU, where owner has no access to CU certificate, either they didn't get one or they've mislaid it, doesn't condemn the install. I don't do EICR's so perhaps not wise to comment, but I understand quite a few get down without lifting floorboards, guess its what was agreed before hand?

Edit, mistake, tis Saturday!

 

[Octopus]

That still doesn't make sense - its seen an electrician recently who has done a very dubious ECIR, probably to the earlier version of the regs ....

Maybe your cousin should start again, appoint their own spark through local recommendation and get a full and proper EICR done.

 

[Midwest]

I'm retired from Electrical contracting.

My wife's cousin has signed a long term lease on the building and was hoping to open the doors in a couple of weeks.
They had the decorators in, sockets started tripping.

Calls me asking for advice. I pop over for a look and give them the gory details. The building hasn't seen an Electrician or a proper tradesman since the 70's.

The contract wanted the new occupier to pay for any building work! Solicitor should have seen the word 'Unsatisfactory' on the EICR but has admitted he missed it!!!

Now I know why they didn't get the keys to the property before they signed the contract. It's a hovel.

Guess the only thing you can do, is pay for your own EICR, and see what you can do from there? Think telectrix would be your best bet, there are other electricians available

 

[Midwest]

Maybe your cousin should start again, appoint their own spark through local recommendation and get a full and proper EICR done.

Your chopping tel's legs there

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

What's wrong with three lighting cables in one device. I've been to several properties with newish CU, where owner has no access to CU, either they didn't get one or they've mislaid it, doesn't condemn the install. I don't do EICR's so perhaps not wise to comment, but I understand quite a few get down without lifting floorboards, guess its what was agreed before hand?

????

It's simple.
If you change a CU and have three lighting circuits you should test and separate them. The handyman who installed the board didn't do that. Nether did he split the 2 radial circuits onto their own RCBO's. Instead he put them on one 32A RCBO.

3 lighting circuits on one breaker. It trips.....And you can't see, you trip and break your neck. That's why we have regulations.

 

[Midwest]

My wife's cousin has signed a long term lease on the building and was hoping to open the doors in a couple of weeks.

What is the period of the long term lease?

 

[Octopus]

????

It's simple.
If you change a CU and have three lighting circuits you should test and separate them. The handyman who installed the board didn't do that. Nether did he split the 2 radial circuits onto their own RCBO's. Instead he put them on one 32A RCBO.

3 lighting circuits on one breaker. It trips.....And you can't see, you trip and break your neck. That's why we have regulations.

A circuit is defined by the circuit breaker, NOT the number of cables

How do you know that 2 cables in a 32A breaker isn't a ring?

 

[Midwest]

????

It's simple.
If you change a CU and have three lighting circuits you should test and separate them. The handyman who installed the board didn't do that. Nether did he split the 2 radial circuits onto their own RCBO's. Instead he put them on one 32A RCBO.

3 lighting circuits on one breaker. It trips.....And you can't see, you trip and break your neck. That's why we have regulations.

Okay, but if those circuits functioned as part of one area, one floor for example, that could be deemed acceptable. So to clarify, all the lighting for the property is controlled from one device?

Incidentally, you've come on here for advice, it doesn't bode well trying to be patronising, not withstanding you will get criticism. Just trying to be of assistance.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

That still doesn't make sense - its seen an electrician recently who has done a very dubious ECIR, probably to the earlier version of the regs ....

Maybe your cousin should start again, appoint their own spark through local recommendation and get a full and proper EICR done.

The report was carried out last month and should have been done to the current regs as his EICR report states.

Not getting the keys before the contract is signed. The lawyer missing the word 'Unsatisfactory' on the EICR report. It's all dubious.

 

[Wilko]

Completely unacceptable to not be allowed access and inspection prior to lease signing and would be cause to break lease in my humble opinion. If the contract is not signed then don't. For sure the building has wiring faults which may be dangerous and you / your family would be forced to fix them prior to opening for business. Ask solicitor if he'd like to stump up for the repairs bill and he might start to take an interest

 

[1Justin]

There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

A circuit is defined by the circuit breaker, NOT the number of cables

How do you know that 2 cables in a 32A breaker isn't a ring?

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Completely unacceptable to not be allowed access and inspection prior to lease signing and would be cause to break lease in my humble opinion. If the contract is not signed then don't. For sure the building has wiring faults which may be dangerous and you / your family would be forced to fix them prior to opening for business. Ask solicitor if he'd like to stump up for the repairs bill and he might start to take an interest

Exactly! The whole thing stinks.

I suggested they null the contract and hand back the keys.
They were supposed to open in a couple of weeks, now it seems like they won't be able to open until at least February 2018.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.

Well said and very true. This appears to be the case my wife's cousin is having right now.

I only saw the EICR yesterday and sighed.
Gave them the low down and now a can of worms has opened.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

What is the period of the long term lease?

10 years.

 

[Octopus]

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

Why not? all depends on the size of the cu, the load on the circuit?

How can you be so sure?

still very smelly

 

[Midwest]

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

I do have to repeat myself, you've come here for advice, and admittedly you'll suffer a little banter & critic, but that's what advice seeking is about. The members here have lots of experience in these and similar matters, doesn't help by being a little bit abrasive yourself. Perhaps you'll doing the same to the solicitor who you suggest has poorly advised your cousin?

Anyway I'm offski!

 

[ipf]

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.

I'm presuming it hasn't been rewired, just added to.

Have you tested to see if there is no completed ring or found other definite evidence that the two legs are not joined?

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Okay, but if those circuits functioned as part of one area, one floor for example, that could be deemed acceptable. So to clarify, all the lighting for the property is controlled from one device?

Incidentally, you've come on here for advice, it doesn't bode well trying to be patronising, not withstanding you will get criticism. Just trying to be of assistance.

No, the lighting has been JB'd all over the place.
It has 3 cables in one RCBO. One up/one down, and one for the rear of the building. (I pulled them out one by one and switched on the lighting) + There is a bank of redundant switches that is no longer in use. the place is a mess.

I'm not trying to patronise anyone mate and I'm glad of the help

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

I do have to repeat myself, you've come here for advice, and admittedly you'll suffer a little banter & critic, but that's what advice seeking is about. The members here have lots of experience in these and similar matters, doesn't help by being a little bit abrasive yourself. Perhaps you'll doing the same to the solicitor who you suggest has poorly advised your cousin?

Anyway I'm offski!

Haha. Don't take it personally. Blame my parents for my dry sense of humour.

I'd say the solicitor know exactly what he was doing to make sure the landlord wasn't out of pocket for long. If the contract doesn't get renewed he doesn't get paid.

Thanks for your input BTW.

 

[Stspark]

Get a local spark in, complete an EICR then go from there. A rewire may not be needed, just fault finding and perhaps some additional circuits. If the lease contract stated, as you say 'new occupier to complete building works' then hire a electrical contractor of your choice and not the landlords handyman.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

I'm presuming it hasn't been rewired, just added to.

Have you tested to see if there is no completed ring or found other definite evidence that the two legs are not joined?

No it hasn't been rewired.
It's had new wiring JB'd to the older existing wiring.

Old colours at the board to 2 sockets (Thought it was a ring to start off with) Then new colours at other sockets, then old colour radials at other sockets. All on the same circuit.

It's definitely 2 radials in one RCBO but all joined together under the floor. Had one of the JB's exposed under the floor yesterday.
Not a pretty sight.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Get a local spark in, complete an EICR then go from there. A rewire may not be needed, just fault finding and perhaps some additional circuits. If the lease contract stated, as you say 'new occupier to complete building works' then hire a electrical contractor of your choice and not the landlords handyman.

Thanks.

I get the feeling the landlord would prefer a handyman due to cost.
He's said he is willing to foot the bill for the rewire, yeah right.

I've told my wife's cousin to stand his ground if the landlord insists on having his own handymen.

Why the regs are lenient for commercial property beggars belief.

 

[ipf]

No it hasn't been rewired.
It's had new wiring JB'd to the older existing wiring.

Old colours at the board to 2 sockets (Thought it was a ring to start off with) Then new colours at other sockets, then old colour radials at other sockets. All on the same circuit.

It's definitely 2 radials in one RCBO but all joined together under the floor. Had one of the JB's exposed under the floor yesterday.
Not a pretty sight.

Seems like a real mess.....but, if the radials are joined under the floor, there will be some sort of ring.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Seems like a real mess.....but, if the radials are joined under the floor, there will be some sort of ring.

It is. It used to be a house. It's one of those minimal 70's installations when all the occupier had was a TV, radio and washing machine.

If you saw it you'd know what I mean. Has rewire written all over it.

It only appears to be a ring because both radials are in the same RCBO back at the CU. Disconnect one leg and half of what seemed to be a ring go off.

Unless you removed the socket faces and carried out some proper testing the average Joe would never know.

 

[NotGettingAnyZsFaction]

Why not? all depends on the size of the cu, the load on the circuit?

How can you be so sure?

still very smelly

You're pulling my balls aren't you

Yes it's smelly because the Landlord knew what work needed doing prior to the contract being signed + they had a survey beforehand.

Bearing in mind their solicitor would have know what work needed doing because he had the report, but nothing was said.

 

[westward10]

Why don't you take up Tels offer in #6 that way you will get a proper opinion from a highly respected forum member. Without pics or seeing the EICR no one can really give a valid opinion and arguing as to whether three wires should be on one rcbo is quite frankly pointless.

 

[telectrix]

pm sent to OP.

 

[elsparko]

condemn the building and walk away knowing you at least tried