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NotGettingAnyZsFaction

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Hello,

I'm retired from the game but decided to drop in and ask the good folks here a few questions regarding issues a family member is having. Hope someone can help.

My wife's cousin has just signed a lease for a property.
They haven't occupied the property as it needs cosmetic work doing.

The decorator comes and plugs in his wallpaper stripper and the power trips, and keeps tripping on all the sockets he tries.
He thinks the paper stripper is faulty so buys a new one, same thing happens and happens again with his kettle and other equipment.

The electrical certificate shows test results as 'passed' with a few Zs and R1+R2 tests but shows the installation is 'unsatisfactory' One snag with that, there is nothing on the cert that explains why the installation is unsatisfactory.

I take a nosey at the sockets and there are old red and black cables mixed with new colours. At first glance it looks like a ring main. Then I remove another few sockets and there are old coloured single 2.5mm cables one the one supposed ring main.

Without testing this suggests there are two radials in one RCBO with new coloured cables added on with JB's. Both 2.5 cables at the consumer unit are red and black. The lighting circuit has three old coloured 1mm cables in one 6A RCBO. The consumer is new-ish but has been opened up that many times the fixing screws for the board face have been turned to mince meat leaving it almost impossible to gain access (took a while to remove)
This along with the new 10mm earth bond to the incoming polythene water mains pipe made me think the local handyman had been in.

It needs a rewire but the landlord insists the Electrician who issued the 'unsatisfactory' certificate give a quote along with other Electricians they've asked to quote for the job.
Is this guy incompetent or just plain lazy when it comes to filling out certificates, and would you ask him to quote for a job?

Thanks.
 
There could well be an earth-neutral fault sat waiting, so that when an appliance is plugged in, causes the RCD to trip (if that is what's tripping?). If you have a combination of colours, perhaps the RFC has been altered and not tested for IR faults? Although that should have been done on the EICR, I would of thought.

It's quite usual to bond the internal metal pipe work, even if the incoming service is plastic, easier to comply that proving beyond doubt that the metal pipework is not or will be in the future extraneous.

I'm wondering why it needs a rewire, if the installation just needs some attention, or do you think it's been subjected to DIY attacks?
 
Midwest said:
There could well be an earth-neutral fault sat waiting, so that when an appliance is plugged in, causes the RCD to trip (if that is what's tripping?). If you have a combination of colours, perhaps the RFC has been altered and not tested for IR faults? Although that should have been done on the EICR, I would of thought.

It's quite usual to bond the internal metal pipe work, even if the incoming service is plastic, easier to comply that proving beyond doubt that the metal pipework is not or will be in the future extraneous.

I'm wondering why it needs a rewire, if the installation just needs some attention, or do you think it's been subjected to DIY attacks?
Click to expand...

I should have mentioned the property is commercial (Old house)
that still has the old wiring .

It's been attacked by the DIY brigade alright.
The only certificate for the instillation was the partially explained one we saw yesterday. It said it passed the testing but the installation was unsatisfactory, and no explanation as to why.

The building was fine as small offices that is was prior to my wife's cousin taking over. Now that they need a mountain of sockets + wiring for a water heater, electric hand washer, air curtains etc, etc, the old wiring is surplus. Old radial circuits just won't do it for a modern commercial shop.

The building doesn't have central heating.
There is only plastic pipe from the main water to the sink. (Main incoming water supply is underneath the sink) with a brass stopcock and and inch of 15mm copper pipe in between. Would you put a 10mm bond to the taps and sink because they are the only metal parts in the kitchen?
I should also mention the 10mm bond cable was run without any real protection......straight across the step of a wooden door frame and showed signs it was being kicked.

I'm still unsure about the guy who issued the partially explained certificate. The landlord knows him and I'm guessing he gave him some paperwork so he could rent it out in a hurry.
Oddly enough the landlords solicitor missed the word 'unsatisfactory' on the certificate :/
 
Murdoch said:
You should ask, in writing, what gives the installation an "unsatisfactory" outcome .............

Edit : if the landlord commissioned the report - its up to him.
Click to expand...

I was wondering that too. Nothing but a few test results that said 'passed' but then it said 'unsatisfactory' when it came for approval of the installation.

Landlord just wants the rent money the look of it.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
The only certificate for the installation was the partially explained one we saw yesterday. It said it passed the testing but the installation was unsatisfactory, and no explanation as to why./
Click to expand...

We can only guess ..... "passed" testing means absolutely nothing.

An EICR is much more than simply some testing.

Unless the you have access to the EICR, we are merely speculating.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
I should have mentioned the property is commercial (Old house)
that still has the old wiring .

It's been attacked by the DIY brigade alright.
The only certificate for the instillation was the partially explained one we saw yesterday. It said it passed the testing but the installation was unsatisfactory, and no explanation as to why.

The building was fine as small offices that is was prior to my wife's cousin taking over. Now that they need a mountain of sockets + wiring for a water heater, electric hand washer, air curtains etc, etc, the old wiring is surplus. Old radial circuits just won't do it for a modern commercial shop.

The building doesn't have central heating.
There is only plastic pipe from the main water to the sink. (Main incoming water supply is underneath the sink) with a brass stopcock and and inch of 15mm copper pipe in between. Would you put a 10mm bond to the taps and sink because they are the only metal parts in the kitchen?
I should also mention the 10mm bond cable was run without any real protection......straight across the step of a wooden door frame and showed signs it was being kicked.

I'm still unsure about the guy who issued the partially explained certificate. The landlord knows him and I'm guessing he gave him some paperwork so he could rent it out in a hurry.
Oddly enough the landlords solicitor missed the word 'unsatisfactory' on the certificate :/
Click to expand...
an eicr should come with at least 6 pages of results including remedial work that needs done, whoever carried out the inspection should refund you.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
I've seen the report in full. And being a retired NICEIC contractor,
that EICR report is good for nothing but the bin.
Click to expand...
sounds like its been a case of a walk round making sure everything turns on and no testing was actually done, actual results dont appear to have been taken, the whole point of an eicr is to check these things that have been missed out , and no list of work that needs carried out to take it up to current standards? id be on the phone for my money back if i was OP
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
The landlord ordered the cert.
It's not the first time I've seen old substandard, and sometimes dangerous installations passed because some bright spark thinks a Zs test makes everything alright ;)
Click to expand...
id be angry if i paid to recieve something and got nothing useful in return, was this job completed on the friday by any chance? ;)
 
elsparko said:
sounds like its been a case of a walk round making sure everything turns on and no testing was actually done, actual results dont appear to have been taken, the whole point of an eicr is to check these things that have been missed out , and no list of work that needs carried out to take it up to current standards? id be on the phone for my money back if i was OP
Click to expand...

Seems that way, but any Electrician who knows his stuff would have seen the cracked sockets, old broken switches, the CU not labelled correctly, pattress boxes dislodged from the wall etc, etc, etc and put it in his report. Not this guy though.
 
Murdoch said:
You lost me....
Click to expand...
an eicr should come with up to 7 pages of information, giving the customer an easy to understand description of the condition of their installation, page 6 usually has the list of remedial work to be completed.

writing "pass" in place of results is cutting a major corner in my opinion, id expect exact results for my money.

if a customer orders something incompatible/unsafe for the job they require i refuse to do it until they agree to use the proper equipment, or they can get someone else.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
I would, but I fear the mudslinging will start if someone here recognises the handwriting of the person who wrote the report.
Not going down that route.

Just looked at the report again and it was a full EICR as stated on the first page.
Click to expand...

Hum .... So you do have the report ......

3 pagesis not a full EICR ....

Something is very smelly
 
Murdoch said:
Hum .... So you do have the report ......

3 pagesis not a full EICR ....

Something is very smelly
Click to expand...

Yes we have the report.

It seems the report was carried out half heartedly without diligence and a regard for the regs.

Nothing about 3 lighting cables in one RCBO, nothing about the visible damage, nothing about the installation not having a certificate even though the CU was changed, nothing about remedial work that was obvious. The visible problems alone would have set alarm bells ringing.

All I can say is that the report shows some testing. It says all testing passed. No floorboards were lifted and the condition of the installation is unsatisfactory. That's all he wrote, nothing else.

We had one Electrician quote for the job already. He saw the EICR and had a few choice words. Complete crap was one of them.
 
Murdoch said:
Time to come clean .... Why are you getting quotes for a rewire of a property you don't own ......
Click to expand...

I'm retired from Electrical contracting.

My wife's cousin has signed a long term lease on the building and was hoping to open the doors in a couple of weeks.
They had the decorators in, sockets started tripping.

Calls me asking for advice. I pop over for a look and give them the gory details. The building hasn't seen an Electrician or a proper tradesman since the 70's.

The contract wanted the new occupier to pay for any building work! Solicitor should have seen the word 'Unsatisfactory' on the EICR but has admitted he missed it!!!

Now I know why they didn't get the keys to the property before they signed the contract. It's a hovel.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
Nothing about 3 lighting cables in one RCBO, nothing about the visible damage, nothing about the installation not having a certificate even though the CU was changed, nothing about remedial work that was obvious. The visible problems alone would have set alarm bells ringing.

All I can say is that the report shows some testing. It says all testing passed. No floorboards were lifted and the condition of the installation is unsatisfactory. That's all he wrote, nothing else.
.
Click to expand...
What's wrong with three lighting cables in one device. I've been to several properties with newish CU, where owner has no access to CU certificate, either they didn't get one or they've mislaid it, doesn't condemn the install. I don't do EICR's so perhaps not wise to comment, but I understand quite a few get down without lifting floorboards, guess its what was agreed before hand?

Edit, mistake, tis Saturday!
 
Last edited:
That still doesn't make sense - its seen an electrician recently who has done a very dubious ECIR, probably to the earlier version of the regs ....

Maybe your cousin should start again, appoint their own spark through local recommendation and get a full and proper EICR done.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
I'm retired from Electrical contracting.

My wife's cousin has signed a long term lease on the building and was hoping to open the doors in a couple of weeks.
They had the decorators in, sockets started tripping.

Calls me asking for advice. I pop over for a look and give them the gory details. The building hasn't seen an Electrician or a proper tradesman since the 70's.

The contract wanted the new occupier to pay for any building work! Solicitor should have seen the word 'Unsatisfactory' on the EICR but has admitted he missed it!!!

Now I know why they didn't get the keys to the property before they signed the contract. It's a hovel.
Click to expand...

Guess the only thing you can do, is pay for your own EICR, and see what you can do from there? Think telectrix would be your best bet, there are other electricians available :)
 
Midwest said:
What's wrong with three lighting cables in one device. I've been to several properties with newish CU, where owner has no access to CU, either they didn't get one or they've mislaid it, doesn't condemn the install. I don't do EICR's so perhaps not wise to comment, but I understand quite a few get down without lifting floorboards, guess its what was agreed before hand?
Click to expand...

????

It's simple.
If you change a CU and have three lighting circuits you should test and separate them. The handyman who installed the board didn't do that. Nether did he split the 2 radial circuits onto their own RCBO's. Instead he put them on one 32A RCBO.

3 lighting circuits on one breaker. It trips.....And you can't see, you trip and break your neck. That's why we have regulations.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
????

It's simple.
If you change a CU and have three lighting circuits you should test and separate them. The handyman who installed the board didn't do that. Nether did he split the 2 radial circuits onto their own RCBO's. Instead he put them on one 32A RCBO.

3 lighting circuits on one breaker. It trips.....And you can't see, you trip and break your neck. That's why we have regulations.
Click to expand...

A circuit is defined by the circuit breaker, NOT the number of cables

How do you know that 2 cables in a 32A breaker isn't a ring?
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
????

It's simple.
If you change a CU and have three lighting circuits you should test and separate them. The handyman who installed the board didn't do that. Nether did he split the 2 radial circuits onto their own RCBO's. Instead he put them on one 32A RCBO.

3 lighting circuits on one breaker. It trips.....And you can't see, you trip and break your neck. That's why we have regulations.
Click to expand...

Okay, but if those circuits functioned as part of one area, one floor for example, that could be deemed acceptable. So to clarify, all the lighting for the property is controlled from one device?

Incidentally, you've come on here for advice, it doesn't bode well trying to be patronising, not withstanding you will get criticism. Just trying to be of assistance. :D
 
Murdoch said:
That still doesn't make sense - its seen an electrician recently who has done a very dubious ECIR, probably to the earlier version of the regs ....

Maybe your cousin should start again, appoint their own spark through local recommendation and get a full and proper EICR done.
Click to expand...

The report was carried out last month and should have been done to the current regs as his EICR report states.

Not getting the keys before the contract is signed. The lawyer missing the word 'Unsatisfactory' on the EICR report. It's all dubious.
 
Completely unacceptable to not be allowed access and inspection prior to lease signing and would be cause to break lease in my humble opinion. If the contract is not signed then don't. For sure the building has wiring faults which may be dangerous and you / your family would be forced to fix them prior to opening for business. Ask solicitor if he'd like to stump up for the repairs bill and he might start to take an interest :)
 
There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.
 
Murdoch said:
A circuit is defined by the circuit breaker, NOT the number of cables

How do you know that 2 cables in a 32A breaker isn't a ring?
Click to expand...

Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.
 
Wilko said:
Completely unacceptable to not be allowed access and inspection prior to lease signing and would be cause to break lease in my humble opinion. If the contract is not signed then don't. For sure the building has wiring faults which may be dangerous and you / your family would be forced to fix them prior to opening for business. Ask solicitor if he'd like to stump up for the repairs bill and he might start to take an interest :)
Click to expand...

Exactly! The whole thing stinks.

I suggested they null the contract and hand back the keys.
They were supposed to open in a couple of weeks, now it seems like they won't be able to open until at least February 2018.
 
1Justin said:
There is a market for cut-price EICR. There are websites out there devoted only to offering bargain-priced reports. Sadly there are plenty of landlords who see the requirement as only an annoyance to the collection of rent, and one to be expunged at the lowest possible cost.

I've come across EICR not worth the paper they are printed out on. I can only guess that those doing these reports can't realize that they would be personally liable in court.

Landlords seem to like it.
Click to expand...

Well said and very true. This appears to be the case my wife's cousin is having right now.

I only saw the EICR yesterday and sighed.
Gave them the low down and now a can of worms has opened.
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.
Click to expand...

Why not? all depends on the size of the cu, the load on the circuit?

How can you be so sure?

still very smelly
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.
Click to expand...

I do have to repeat myself, you've come here for advice, and admittedly you'll suffer a little banter & critic, but that's what advice seeking is about. The members here have lots of experience in these and similar matters, doesn't help by being a little bit abrasive yourself. Perhaps you'll doing the same to the solicitor who you suggest has poorly advised your cousin?

Anyway I'm offski!
 
NotGettingAnyZsFaction said:
Have you ever rewired a property and put 3 different lighting circuits in one breaker? NO is my guess, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

The ring main isn't a ring main. It's 2 radial circuits.
70's wiring with new colour cables added by JB's, do keep up mate.
Click to expand...
I'm presuming it hasn't been rewired, just added to.

Have you tested to see if there is no completed ring or found other definite evidence that the two legs are not joined?
 
Midwest said:
Okay, but if those circuits functioned as part of one area, one floor for example, that could be deemed acceptable. So to clarify, all the lighting for the property is controlled from one device?

Incidentally, you've come on here for advice, it doesn't bode well trying to be patronising, not withstanding you will get criticism. Just trying to be of assistance. :D
Click to expand...

No, the lighting has been JB'd all over the place.
It has 3 cables in one RCBO. One up/one down, and one for the rear of the building. (I pulled them out one by one and switched on the lighting) + There is a bank of redundant switches that is no longer in use. the place is a mess.

I'm not trying to patronise anyone mate and I'm glad of the help ;)
 
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