Rose outside zone 2 but 230v lamp below zone 2

[cdmh electrical]

Hi i recently informed a customer that they needed an enclosed fitting in the bathroom. They had a batten holder with the rose above 2.25 m but the lamp was below 2.25 m meaning the 230v lamp is in zone 2. Its a PME system and the lights are not on an RCD.
The customer has been told that i was wrong by another electrician (probably the one who installed the batten holder) and is asking me to change them back and refund him. Would appreciate some advise on what you guys think please. many thanks.

 

[Midwest]

Direct them to electrical safety first: Bathroom Safety & Electricals | Electrical Safety First There are various pdf files about zones in bathrooms, google 'electrical zoning in bathrooms' for example. Photo copy the appropriate page in your electricians guide to building regs. I suppose the issue you have, is demonstrating that the glass bit of the light bulb isn't IPX4 rated!

 

[andyb]

Hi i recently informed a customer that they needed an enclosed fitting in the bathroom. They had a batten holder with the rose above 2.25 m but the lamp was below 2.25 m meaning the 230v lamp is in zone 2. Its a PME system and the lights are not on an RCD.
The customer has been told that i was wrong by another electrician (probably the one who installed the batten holder) and is asking me to change them back and refund him. Would appreciate some advise on what you guys think please. many thanks.

How did this come about? were you doing a periodic or undertaking work in the bathroom?
Did the other electrician do a like for like replacement? did he mention the requirement for rcd protection?
Did you mention rcd protection?

Difficult to say what you should do without a bit more background really, other than to say that I wouldn't change it back to how it was in any circumstances.

 

[Midwest]

Or tell to go to B&Q or other DIY store and ask the store to recommended to them an IPX4 rated ceiling rose!

 

[cdmh electrical]

I was doing a safety electrical condition report. The house is quite new and conforms to the 16th edition regulations. But the bathroom light in my eyes isn't even up to 16th edition regs.

 

[Paul.M]

. I suppose the issue you have, is demonstrating that the glass bit of the light bulb isn't IPX4 rated!

As above ^^^

Have a read of reg 701.55 then ask the customer to prove that the lamp has an IPX4 rating.

 

[andyb]

I was doing a safety electrical condition report. The house is quite new and conforms to the 16th edition regulations. But the bathroom light in my eyes isn't even up to 16th edition regs.

Then it depends on what code you gave it, was there supplementary bonding?

The bottom line is that you have given your professional advice and the client has accepted it.
It sounds like you have done exactly as I would have done and do.

 

[Octopus]

What code did you give the light fitting?

 

[cdmh electrical]

code 2

 

[Simlec]

So how did you get to a code 2 with no reference to a reg number?

 

[davesparks]

code 2

What is the potential danger?

 

[cdmh electrical]

I had a regulation number i was just double checking as it had been queried by another electrician.

 

[cdmh electrical]

Hi just to let you all no i rang the niceic technical helpline and they confirmed that i was right and it was a code 2. Thanks for all the helpful comments.

 

[davesparks]

Hi just to let you all no i rang the niceic technical helpline and they confirmed that i was right and it was a code 2. Thanks for all the helpful comments.

What is the potential danger and which regulation number?

 

[cdmh electrical]

What is the potential danger and which regulation number?

The regulations are there to stop potential dangers

 

[davesparks]

The regulations are there to stop potential dangers

Yes, which is why I asked which regulation refers and what the potential danger is.

The lamp holder and flex are double insulated. Double insulated equipment is allowed in zone 2.

 

[Octopus]

Hi just to let you all no i rang the niceic NOT technical helpline and they confirmed that i was right and it was a code 2. Thanks for all the helpful comments.

Corrected that for you.

The NICEIC & Elecsa helpdesk is a complete joke - manned by unskilled, and non technical people. Another reason I ditched Elecsa

 

[cdmh electrical]

Yes, which is why I asked which regulation refers and what the potential danger is.

The lamp holder and flex are double insulated. Double insulated equipment is allowed in zone 2.

anything in zone 2 has to be at least ipx 4 a bc lamp and batten holder are not ipx 4

 

[Dave OCD]

Yes, which is why I asked which regulation refers and what the potential danger is.

The lamp holder and flex are double insulated. Double insulated equipment is allowed in zone 2.

The lamp holder isn't even insulated at all if the bulb is missing , I know there are thousands of these still in bathrooms across the country but I would consider such a light inadequate in a bathroom these days.

 

[andyb]

Yes, which is why I asked which regulation refers and what the potential danger is.

The lamp holder and flex are double insulated. Double insulated equipment is allowed in zone 2.

Flex? Is it a pendant then?

 

[Midwest]

Pendant, battern holder, regulation number, blind obedience to the regs (often quoted here by members), I wouldn't have such a fitting in my bathroom. You could say, what the likely hood of touching such fitting with bare skin in damp conditions, unlike a light switch? I know the dangers, not sure elderly or kids would Chance I wouldn't be prepaid to take, don't care how many are fitted across the country.

From the Electrical Safety First; Enclosed ceiling lights are preferable to the ones that hang down.All light fittings, that are not enclosed, should be out of reach of someone using, or still wet from using, the bath or shower.

 

[Midwest]

Corrected that for you.

The NICEIC & Elecsa helpdesk.....manned by unskilled, and non technical people.

That's quite a statement Murdoch. Perhaps you could qualify that by evidencing the qualifications of those on these helpdesk or lack of them as you have suggested.

 

[Octopus]

That's quite a statement Murdoch. Perhaps you could qualify that by evidencing the qualifications of those on these helpdesk or lack of them as you have suggested.

Hum... try calling them - its the general helpdesk for any Tom, Dick or Harry you get through to!

 

[7029 dave]

The lamp holder isn't even insulated at all if the bulb is missing , I know there are thousands of these still in bathrooms across the country but I would consider such a light inadequate in a bathroom these days.

That's because they were the only fittings allowed (minimum spec) , in bathrooms/ above kitchen work area's. Don't forget they are not classed as pendants, I fitted loads doing council work, cheap an cheerful.

 

[davesparks]

Flex? Is it a pendant then?

Oops, I read rose in the title and assumed it was. Even less problem then since it's a batten holder considering the batten holder with home office skirt was designed specifically for use in bathrooms and was correct at the time of installation

 

[Midwest]

Corrected that for you.

The NICEIC & Elecsa helpdesk is a complete joke - manned by unskilled, and non technical people.

Don't want to hi-jack this thread and start a discussion on another, I cannot agree on your earlier statement above. Whilst I haven't access to the profile & qualifications of the staff on the technical helpline, in a recent Niceic/Elecsa publication with a piece on the helpline staff who were presented with a short CV of each; '48 years experience in the electrical industry, industrial, commercial & domestic'. --'Petrochemical installations, electrical clerk of works & electrical surveyor'. --'Experienced in design to 11kv, working in the coal-mining industry and mainly heavy industry'. --'30 years experience in heavy industry & commercial installations & NVQ assessor'. --'Domestic & industrial Electrician, college tutor'.-- etc, etc. Hardly 'unskilled, and non technical people'. I found the helpline quite useful, and certainly my emails to them were answered in detail. Whilst I can't agree with all the advice I received, I can't doubt their qualification to give advice.

 

[DuaneMHunt1976]

Im guessing that if i was the NICEIC Help Desk (I just spoke to the Online bit .. in type!)
its not a matter of knowing the JOB, thats your Business, its more knowing how to Link the Question you are asking to there HELP Database.

Like we should really do with the Wiring Regs, its not to know the book word for word, as things change and F move around for no dam reason, any way... Its to know how to be able to look it up..
I dont know every thing about computers, but i can find my way around a lot of them, to a degree that it looks like i know what i am doing (Even when Microsoft move things around from one version of windows to another)

So all NICEIC Help Desk need, is to know their own system, and how to deal with People who Panic and Need to call them up asking Questions there and then.