Splitting of UFH and Rads via Stat

[Mason Carter]

Good evening.

Finally the futility of the design of my heating system has led me to try and alter it. Central heating is something i'm not brilliantly versed in.

To keep it short, presently a BG WR-1 wireless clock controls the rads and the manifold via the switched output, powering up to the boiler with a flex and down to the manifold. The result is that when the ever hotter UFH reaches temp, it turns the whole system off. The stat is currently in the downstairs with the UFH, split into 3 zones. Moving the stat upstairs had a slight improvement, but it's not perfect.

This setup is leaving the upstairs freezing most days.

What I would like to do, is use the current system just for the upstairs rads, and add a separate clock for the UFH. I have had minor success in an attempt of adding another spur for the manifold to power it independently, however the valve powers off of the WR-1, so water flows, but doesn't heat up. My idea was to just use an immersion timer for the manifold, hoping that the manifold had the capability to call for the valve and pump etc.

Will it be possible to connect something to the call wire in the existing system, so that the boiler heats up the water for the manifold independently? Can this be done purely electrically?
In my mind it should... but I may be wrong.

The outcome I'd like is to have the UFH kick in around 4am, for a few hours so that its warm when I come down around 6-7 (it takes a while to take effect) and then as norm, have the rads turn on around 6, which obviously can only be done via two different clocks. Presently the lot comes on around 5:30 which isn't ideal for us.

Attached is some pictures. The clock is the Wr-1, 3 I believe 1 is the Common and 3 is 'Call'
The boiler is right above all of this. Manifold is the Emmeti ewc-1, 4 zones in use off of 3 stats.

Any help or insight is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

 

[ferg]

You can either try and get a plumber and electrician to create another heating zone or use something like the honeywell evohome.

 

[ferg]

I didn't read your post properly before replying. Ignore above.

 

[ferg]

It sounds like a right balls up of a design. Get a decent heating engineer / plumber to look at it and zone it properly

 

[Mason Carter]

It sounds like a right balls up of a design. Get a decent heating engineer / plumber to look at it and zone it properly

I know. There's a few things around the place I wish could have been done differently in hindsight had I have known more about it all at the time it was put it. ( I started training about 2 months after the renovation was complete)

I think it may come to that, but i'm hoping that I with some research I can find a solution to do myself to avoid the cost, or some of it.

 

[Bsharp]

The simplest way to have control of rads and UFH separately is to have two 2port valves installed one for the UHF and one for the rads. You don’t say what type of boiler you have I.e combi or system boiler but either way it’s pretty straight forward.
The UHF would control one valve which in turn would fire the boiler and a seperate timer or programmable roomstat would control the second rad valve which would also fire the boiler. Two valves is by far the easier option to control two heating zones. Just a slightly modified s-plan really.

 

[The Ghost]

Could you replace the stat for the ufh for a programmable stat that allows for calibration of the temperature on that zone alone so you can set it to be more in line with the other stats temperature?

 

[Toneyz]

Am I correct in that you have stats for each of the UFH zones if so are they just stats or time clock /stats. And this valve operates all the heating ?.

 

[Bsharp]

The impression I get from the OP is that only one valve controlling heating (rads nd underfloor) so only possible way for this to work independently of in another is to install two motorised valves, heating/hot water. And in a perfect world 3 programmable roomstats for each UHF zone and a separate programmer and stat for rads or another programmable room stat. If as I presume the system is plumbed as one circuit rads and uhf together no way to seperate them. Plumbing alterations required I’m afraid.

 

[Bsharp]

Sorry meant rads and UHF. Not Heating and hot water.

 

[Mason Carter]

Yeah this is how i feared it would be. You are correct, the UHF has 3 room stats for the zones.

I'm 99% sure this is how it's been plumbed. Gonna have a mate pop round and take a look to see what he thinks, none of the plumbing is accessible, is the problem, so unlikely we can afford to rip the kitchen out for this.

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Toneyz]

Any system that I have worked on has had programmable room stat per zone opening each of the manifold valves and a volt free switch to boiler the wireless room stat transmitter should be in the coldest area upstairs where the heating is via rads the valve operating rads only.

 

[Mason Carter]

Any system that I have worked on has had programmable room stat per zone opening each of the manifold valves and a volt free switch to boiler the wireless room stat transmitter should be in the coldest area upstairs where the heating is via rads the valve operating rads only.

Yeah that's how i assumed it would be, but upon testing I could get the manifold to send water to the zones downstairs... but it would only turn hot when the rads where turned on via the clock... but this was just by operating the manifold with and live and neutral, and not sending any commands to the valves etc independently of the rads' timeclock.

 

[Toneyz]

So the valve has to be open and the rads upstairs on if you need UFH on. Hopefully it could just be the way it is wired. Have you got any photo's of the plumbing around the valve and the UFH control centre.

 

[Mason Carter]

So the valve has to be open and the rads upstairs on if you need UFH on. Hopefully it could just be the way it is wired. Have you got any photo's of the plumbing around the valve and the UFH control centre.

Ill go take a look now but it's a cramped and blocked in boiler. Standby.

 

[Mason Carter]

Okay so as you can see, I believe that the pipe with the bond leads down to the UFh.. and so I can only assume leads off to the rads after?

 

[Toneyz]

Sorry I was expecting to see a zone valve. The pipe with the bonding clamp on it does that go to UFH manifold and the pipe going up is flow for upstairs rads ?. To be sure what the pipes go what is the boiler ?.

 

[Mason Carter]

This is the view I have, the manifold is on a board under the boiler. There is also the only view I have of the boiler etc, I think the pump is tucked away above this lot.

 

[Mason Carter]

The pipe to the manifold comes from that U bend seen in the above post... i've got a picture but it's literally just one dusty pipe behind that board so it must be.

 

[Toneyz]

I think that the pipe which is a Y shape ie comes from boiler splits down to the UFH up to rads is heating flow (what boiler is it) a 2 port valve would need to be put in the leg that goes to rads (after split).Have you got a photo of UFH control unit.

 

[Mason Carter]

I think that the pipe which is a Y shape ie comes from boiler splits down to the UFH up to rads is heating flow (what boiler is it) a 2 port valve would need to be put in the leg that goes to rads (after split).Have you got a photo of UFH control unit.

It's a combi. The UFH is an Emmeti ewc-1... i've got this picture but access is cramped here.

 

[Toneyz]

You will have to get a plumber to check what combi is it ?

 

[Toneyz]

In the boiler for the heating you should have terminals for a stat eg L and Rt from stat a two core & E cable/flex would need to be connected between this and the volt free boiler terminals in UFH wiring ctr. when a valve is fitted to leg for rads the orange and gray will go between the room stat terminals in the boiler. The brown to open the valve goes to 3 in the wireless stat link between live and 1.

 

[GBDamo]

You could try backing the flow control valves back on each of the UF manifold zone valves effectively starving the ground floor and forcing flow to the rads. Ideally move the stat upstairs. This will require a lot of tinkering with flow rates but may at least get you some heat upstairs in the short term.

As already said the real answer is to split the zones.

 

[Toneyz]

What did you decide to do in the end ?.