Suppliers Earth TN-S

[Roger]

Is it ok for you to connect to it ? earth clamp to sheath.

I had a call tonight and a customer could not reset his RCD so no power at all.Ok fixed the fault unlpugged the kettle and it reset as soon as we plug it in it tripped so power all restored.Bid disadvantage of having 1 RCD for whole house.
Double checked earth loop and got over 8.2 ohms on 32amp ring main and thought it could be a loose connection so did cooker socket and got 7.92 for a 40 amp MCB.
Nice bit of 10mm cable on gas and water but no EARTH at meter head,no MET nothing.Had board changed about 10 years ago he said.
All the houses roughly the same in the street all built same time so popped next door and they had a TN-S.Soldered to a wide strip of woven braided steel strap.
So fitted a clamp on cable sheath ,16mm to a MET and 16mm to CU and gas and water connected ,rechecked and got 0.62 ohms on ring so happier now.
I am amazed that it had no earth at all and had been like it for years.It has even had a new digital meter fitted and you would have thought that the meter fitter might have noticed.
No cup of coffee as kettle knackered but £10 tip for coming out.
Should i inform DNO ?

 

[telectrix]

ok, if it's so wrong, answer me this. then . called DNO in january, told them i was not happy with the earthing on a client's house. a pme earth terminal was fitted to the cut-out but had not been linked to the neutral. basically the only earthing was through the water pipe bonding. i finally got an answer from DNO last week. should i have left the installation in a dangerous condition for 5 months, or fiited a clamp.? i know what i consider the best option.

 

[netblindpaul]

bororobbo,
It should not have been left with no earth, you have a legal option. TT.
However the DNO have a legal duty to maintain their network.
They should respond in a timely manner.
If you cannot solicit this response then you need to research a little and speak to them in terms they will underdstand, take copious notes during the phone call, names and ext. numbers when you report the lethal condition with their equipment so that you can ensure that this information is passed on to the authorities in the event of a fatality.

telectrix,
How did you confirm this without breaking the law?
See my comments above.

Also, breaking seals and removing cut out fuses is also illegal, unless you have written authority from the DNO, appropriate training and appropriate PPE.

Please go and do an FMEA on these and see what you come up with, then you'll understand why this work is controlled.

 

[telectrix]

bororobbo,
It should not have been left with no earth, you have a legal option. TT.
However the DNO have a legal duty to maintain their network.
They should respond in a timely manner.
If you cannot solicit this response then you need to research a little and speak to them in terms they will underdstand, take copious notes during the phone call, names and ext. numbers when you report the lethal condition with their equipment so that you can ensure that this information is passed on to the authorities in the event of a fatality.

telectrix,
How did you confirm this without breaking the law?
See my comments above.

Also, breaking seals and removing cut out fuses is also illegal, unless you have written authority from the DNO, appropriate training and appropriate PPE.

Please go and do an FMEA on these and see what you come up with, then you'll understand why this work is controlled.

i confirmed it by measuring Ze, PSSC and PEFC. and as for taking copios notes, etc. etc. i've got a living to earn, not spend time in futile, non-paying, horrendously costly phone calls ( 0845 from mobiles is 35p/min. listening to endless recorded messages and stupid your call will be answered as soon as possible") . i'd rather jump off the mersey ferry.

 

[netblindpaul]

telectrix,
I have had the same on a new install in an unoccupied building.
Had a next working day response from DNO, as it was unoccupied and we had a reasonable earth through the structural steelwork.
If the building had been occupied they would have been there within hours tops as an emergency call out to a dangerous situation, and of their making.
This is what you should have done is get them to provide you with the service they are legally obliged to.
Else TT the install simple.
To leave the install as was without issuing an EDN and shutting the install down is criminally negligent.

It just gets worse!

I can't believe you left a dangerous installation in service for 5 months, or are you saying you broke the law to make it in your opinion safe, in a manner which in the eyes of the ESC, the NIC, probably the IET & the DNO's is dangerous in itself?

Which one of these criminal, incompetent and downright dangerous acts was it?

I don't know whether it is worth staying around here, I don't want to be associated with so called professionals that think such actions acceptable!

This beggars belief and is no better than the DIY'er or other "persons unknown" undertaking other dangerous electrical installation works.

As well as the badge some of you are sporting in your sigs that DIY electrics is dangerous, perhaps you need to think about the fact that electricla contractors undertaking DIY works on the national grid is dangerous and also illegal!

So next time you need a new supply what are you gonna do, dig the road up and run it in yourself, why not, you work on the grid all the time it seems.

 

[telectrix]

as regards, " being there within hours". took 3 days to write to me saying they would arrange a visit " within 5 working days". 12 phone calls and 4 months later, had a phone call " can't provide an earth at the location. you'll have to TT it".
now. i'll tell you what i did.
i borrowed a trained meerkat from compare the meerkat.com. sent him with a fine cord up inside the new studded wall into the attic, then out through a rat hole in the gable end, across a tiled roof, down a drainpipe, then used the fine cord to pull a 10mm earth cable to the edge of the cesspit ( nice and damp ) and drove in a 20ft length of galvanised scaffold pole. to this i clamped ( using 5 BS951 clamps ) the 10mm earth, then covered the termination with industrial grade chip fat ( to minimise the effects of corrosion ). and whacked it all down with a 14lb sledge ( santa don't need it for a few months yet ). only got a decent Ze when the meerkat piddled on the chip fat.

needless to say, no meerkats were harmed in the performance of the above excercise.

 

[Des 56]

Its a shame that the sentiments displayed in the reply are not evident in the electrical industry in its entirety

I am sure all who work in the industry would be more than happy to see all available codes and practices carried out safely and by competent people
The reality of the industry is that self interested parties throughout,put selfish interest before safety
Thats as much a critisism of the suppliers as any spark playing with equipment that is off limits to them

Electrical installation,the working with that installation, and competency, are mainly not an initial requirement
Its only when things go ---- up that competence plays any part

Un informed members of the public routinely carry out dangerous life threating acts with electrical installation with the blessing of the countrys powers that be,look at the freedom permitted in all legistlation for electrical installation control or lack should I say

Danger is relative,the chances of me getting something wrong playing with the suppliers equipment is almost nil.zero even
The chances of a diyer getting their un trained installation to bite them is much much higher

Its difficult to take issue with any of the hyper dangerous warnings given,because they are real, because of that danger present
In the real world though,electricity has been around a lot longer than the H+S brigade and with no more fatalities before that H+S brigade sprouted wings

Responsibility for your own personal welfare seems to be an horrendous concept to the members of the brigade,yet personal responsibility has had a far higher success in keeping people safe than all the regulation that is sprouted to replace it

A little over sensitive to the "thou shallt not" code I suggest

 

[Knobhead]

Looks like as usual there’s a big difference between utopia and reality.
Yes we should stick to the letter of the law. The DNO will arrive on their magic carpet within half an hour. Fix the problem with a wave of their magic wand.
Now lets put our realist hat on, the DNO will arrive on an ox cart 3 months after you’ve asked them to attend. Not having the gear needed they’ll clear off for a fortnight.
As a responsible person what do you do for the customer:
· walk away and pretend you’ve not seen the problem
· tell them and put the fear of god up them for the next few months
· do what you can with what you’ve got to hand?

 

[Roger]

Blimey up to 3 pages now,i only asked whether I should inform the DNO.

My own house is TN-S and it has a BS951 clamp fitted and was fitted when we moved in as the service head was loose and they came to fix it as i can not touch that obviously !
My last experience of calling out a DNO took 4 phonecalls and 5 weeks before they came and PME'd it.They did not charge though.
Ok it was not the best thing to do but i had checked that the earth was there,i took all the necessary reading and proved the sheath provided the earth,albeit used the wrong clamp and should not have touched it.

Its all very well quoting the law and having harsh arguments on here and obviously a few members now rubbed up the wrong way but this is good as the object of this forum is to educate and for me to learn what i do not know.
Or have yet to read from one of my many books that i now own.

I do not know it all but lifes an education.

Now where's my blowtorch and solder ! (only joking 'netblindpaul')

 

[not clever]

I'm with netblindpaul.

Utter madness giving advice such as has been given in this thread on an open forum.
Whats even worse is that some of you who pertain to be qualified & competent electricians think its fine to be giving unsound & potentialy dangerous advice on undertaking illegal work on the DNO supply/earthing side to anybody that cares to read the posts.
So now from this flawed advice any old diyer or new student to the trade, will think its common for us to illegaly tamper with the DNO earthing/sheathing. Well I can hand on heart say I've never used a 951 clamp on a TNS sheath.

I have however called DNO & had them out with in a 3 hour period to make good a poor connection, any longer & I'd have TT'd it as in my view it's safer for me to knock in a rod than tighten a clamp on a lead sheath that might be thin/cracked/bent/damaged internaly or I could just plain old tighten the screw to far.

Maybe DNO's refrain from letting us remove cutout fuses, because they see examples of incorrect advice given such as here.

I would advise any moderators to pull some of the unsound advice here.

Professionals my a.r.s.e

 

[Geordie Spark]

same problem i've got right now in my own home have just phoned dno and keep getting fobbed of. So from my connection get no reading but have a reading of the sheath, so not a good idea to put my own clamp on?
View attachment 5901

That looks like an old metal cut out.

The DNO in my area (NEDL) are changing one of these at one of my customer's houses as they are no longer permitted & they have to change them free of charge to the customer.

They have to dig a hole outside the house & chop the cable to isolate the metal cut out, fit a new plastec one then reconnect the cable & make good the hole.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Looks like as usual there’s a big difference between utopia and reality.
Yes we should stick to the letter of the law. The DNO will arrive on their magic carpet within half an hour. Fix the problem with a wave of their magic wand.
Now lets put our realist hat on, the DNO will arrive on an ox cart 3 months after you’ve asked them to attend. Not having the gear needed they’ll clear off for a fortnight.
As a responsible person what do you do for the customer:
· walk away and pretend you’ve not seen the problem
· tell them and put the fear of god up them for the next few months
· do what you can with what you’ve got to hand?

So far, they've made 3 visits to upgrade their tails from VIR to something more suitable & they still haven't done it.

Another visit is sheduled for next Wednesday !!!

 

[Knobhead]

That looks like an old metal cut out.

The DNO in my area (NEDL) are changing one of these at one of my customer's houses as they are no longer permitted & they have to change them free of charge to the customer.

They have to dig a hole outside the house & chop the cable to isolate the metal cut out, fit a new plastec one then reconnect the cable & make good the hole.

This gets just gets better! So some poor jointer has to climb in a wet muddy hole and split a live paper lead! Breaking through the lead is when things are liable to go wrong. The jointer has to wait for the numpty to change the head, then he has to make a joint, which includes clamps or plumbing on to the lead. To add to jointers misery it’ll probably start raining.

And yes I’ve been the poor sod down the hole. Not working for a DNO but on an industrial site. DNO trained though.

 

[BOROROBBO]

telectrix,

I can't believe you left a dangerous installation in service for 5 months, or are you saying you broke the law to make it in your opinion safe, in a manner which in the eyes of the ESC, the NIC, probably the IET & the DNO's is dangerous in itself?

Which one of these criminal, incompetent and downright dangerous acts was it?

what would you have done netblind paul?

left the installation in a dangerous condition while waiting for a DNO to pull their finger out of their arse or would you have fitted a clamp to make the installation safe?

 

[flukey]

what would you have done netblind paul?

left the installation in a dangerous condition while waiting for a DNO to pull their finger out of their arse or would you have fitted a clamp to make the installation safe?

surely the only sensible thing to do would be bang a rod in until the dno pull their finger out of their arse

then when they do turn up they can put the 951 clamp on

 

[netblindpaul]

I would have had the DNO there within hours tops mate not months, there are ways and means of doing this correctly.
Else TT it is.

 

[pennywise]

I usually tell the DNO that it's a lone women with a child, seems to work a treat

 

[alanl]

I would have had the DNO there within hours tops mate not months, there are ways and means of doing this correctly.
Else TT it is.

I had this problem in my house. BS951 on the TN-S sheaf. Rang up EON, who said they wouldn't touch it, but they could come and make it PME for £360.
Spoke to a few other sparkies who mostly said keep trying, and they will eventually send somebody round to put the correct earth clamp on. It never worked, I tried 3 times, got put through to various departments, and was eventually told they have no duty to maintain the earth clamp to the customer. This was wrong, but for different reasons.
I didnt believe them, and after some research, found it was true, in a roundabout way.
The legislation is here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2665/made

It is 24 (4) that is appropriate:
"(4) Unless he can reasonably conclude that it is inappropriate for reasons of safety, a distributor shall, when providing a new connection at low voltage, make available his supply neutral conductor or, if appropriate, the protective conductor of his network for connection to the protective conductor of the consumer’s installation."

The reason they give for not fitting a new earth clamp is safety. They cannot know what condition the incoming line cables are on old installs, so do not want to risk the safety of their workers, when an easily done modification (TN-C-S) is available.

So if you can get your DNO to come out and fit a new earth clamp, then you have done well, as they are not obliged, on older properties, to repair it.

Alan.

 

[Des 56]

If you work on an installation,you have to leave the installation with a suitable earth,there can be no argument against that at all
Safety has to be No 1 on our list at all times

As far as dno equipment is concerned,my attitude is I will make my installation safe,whether that means eg installaing meter tails or isolating the supply to work on it safely or providing the necessary earth connection which may entail connecting to a pme terminal at the cut out
The danger of fitting the wrong type of clamp to a lead sheathed cable is very very real,care would have to be taken even with a suitable clamp

As much as I state that H+S is strangling our country
I still believe that health and safety is very very important,but that safety should be in the hands of the person doing whatever work it is they do,otherwise they shouldn't be doing that work

My own belief is that you should not get into a situation where the decision to do anything to the lead sheath has to be made
That should always, without exception be checked, along with bonding before any installation work is carried out

The downside to our industry is this fragmentation of the supply sector to such a degree that they dont know or dont care about the complete farce they have made to anybody trying first to have contact with them, and second the total dis organised chaos they have made of addressing these issues,simply because there is no profit to be gained in those issues

 

[Geordie Spark]

If you work on an installation,you have to leave the installation with a suitable earth,there can be no argument against that at all
Safety has to be No 1 on our list at all times

As far as dno equipment is concerned,my attitude is I will make my installation safe,whether that means eg installaing meter tails or isolating the supply to work on it safely or providing the necessary earth connection which may entail connecting to a pme terminal at the cut out
The danger of fitting the wrong type of clamp to a lead sheathed cable is very very real,care would have to be taken even with a suitable clamp

As much as I state that H+S is strangling our country
I still believe that health and safety is very very important,but that safety should be in the hands of the person doing whatever work it is they do,otherwise they shouldn't be doing that work

My own belief is that you should not get into a situation where the decision to do anything to the lead sheath has to be made
That should always, without exception be checked, along with bonding before any installation work is carried out

The downside to our industry is this fragmentation of the supply sector to such a degree that they dont know or dont care about the complete farce they have made to anybody trying first to have contact with them, and second the total dis organised chaos they have made of addressing these issues,simply because there is no profit to be gained in those issues

And that hits the nail very firmly & squarely on the head.

 

[BlueToBits]

I have to agree with Des and Geordie, but that still doesn't address the problem. I've seen the aftermath of a lead supply cable blowing and its enough for me to never even think about trying to attach a 951 clamp. And yes, I would leave it without an earth if the client did not want to pay for a TT. I'm not risking my life and liberty so that the client can save a few quid.