House rewire and compliance certification question

[Mattressback]

hi, asking as a customer not a tradesman

Having had a rewire and had some issues with the electrician , namely his working standards and the fact the job took twice as long as estimated. I paid a third up front before work started, he then coerced a not agreed upon second payment out of me a little later and now the electrician is now demanding the final third of the invoice before he will provide me with any certification .

Because there is an element of mistrust I’m worried he may take the remainder of the money and then I will be left chasing him forever after for the certificates. I’ve suggested he bring them and I transfer the money there and then in front of him but he has refused this offer and is insisting on final payment first.

Is this standard practice?

 

[Pete999]

hi, asking as a customer not a tradesman

Having had a rewire and had some issues with the electrician , namely his working standards and the fact the job took twice as long as estimated. I paid a third up front before work started, he then coerced a not agreed upon second payment out of me a little later and now the electrician is now demanding the final third of the invoice before he will provide me with any certification .

Because there is an element of mistrust I’m worried he may take the remainder of the money and then I will be left chasing him forever after for the certificates. I’ve suggested he bring them and I transfer the money there and then in front of him but he has refused this offer and is insisting on final payment first.

Is this standard practice?

Jobs not complete until the relevant certification has been submitted, he is trying it on, Make the bloke wait until you get the cert, and then seek advice as to the content of the cert from a competent Electrician, if you distrust him that much, far to much of this carp going on by dishonest tradespeople, and I use the tradesman title losely.

 

[Nebu1a]

Is this standard practice?

Cant reply for others but I dont ask for money up front for a rewire.
Halway through or after first fix Ill invoice for part payment and the rest on completion.
Trust has to go both ways.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I have had this out with a customer when completed the job for them
and them not paying on full bill ,he does not need to give you the cert and till Moines are paid in full, but how ever he must register the job within the 30days. until you pay him .

 

[Toneyz]

What is wrong with his working standards and why has it taken longer is he charging you if it took longer than he said has he come across unforeseen problems?
It is a good idea to have stage payments in arrear
Communication is always key between both parties if need be a formal contract/agreement in writing.
The final payment should be made when all certification has been issued or proof that notification has been done. As Pete's reply refers.
Is he a member of a self-certification scheme i.e NICEIC, Stroma, NAPIT etc, however, they will not get involved with financial disputes.

 

[Toneyz]

I have had this out with a customer when completed the job for them
and them not paying on full bill ,he does not need to give you the cert and till Moines are paid in full, but how ever he must register the job within the 30days. until you pay him .

The customer has contracted by written or verbal you to install an installation in compliance with BS7671 that includes Chapter 63 631.1BYB.

 

[buzzlightyear]

The customer has contracted by written or verbal you to install an installation in compliance with BS7671 that includes Chapter 63 631.1BYB.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt .
rang me scam ,answer for them ,has long you have register the work with in the 30days that fine ,you do not need to give him the test certs
if you are taken them to court .or disputing a bill.

 

[Toneyz]

You have not given me the electrical certificate I am not paying you.
You have not paid me I am not giving you the certificate.
I am taking you to the small claims court
compliance to BS7671 will probably be referred to and I don't think your scheme will back you up.

 

[buzzlightyear]

You have not given me the electrical certificate I am not paying you.
You have not paid me I am not giving you the certificate

on my invoices in bold red nor pay then no cert.

 

[buzzlightyear]

some customers try and get away with out paying ,I have one now .

 

[Toneyz]

some customers try and get away with out paying ,I have one now .

Do you think that by not issuing the electrical installation certificate is going to make them pay I can see it could if they need it for a house sale etc. An EICR is something different. For what reason have they given to not pay?

 

[buzzlightyear]

Do you think that by not issuing the electrical installation certificate is going to make them pay I can see it could if they need it for a house sale etc. An EICR is something different. For what reason have they given to not pay?

a fault I had to be sorted out after a clown by passed the one of the RCDs .and a consumer unit gone in a few years ago,any way that another story Pinocchio.

 

[Mattressback]

hi Thanks for all the replies, it’s sure turned into a heated debate. The main reason the job took longer was he simply has a very slow rate of work, he didn’t complete one single room until the very last day, I suspect he went to other jobs during the day as often there was very little progress made Day to day. He was very lacking in dust sheeting anything and has damaged some of my furniture to which he’s asked for proof of purchase to pass on to his insurer, the problem is the furniture is more than a decade old and of course I don’t have receipts for it. He intimidated me into the second payment, threatened me with court if I didn’t give him it despite his quote clearly stating only the initial payment to be made and the remainder upon completion and those are the reasons we are at this lack of trust.

Tho why he doesn’t trust me to pay I don’t know, I’ve paid everything he’s asked to date. I can only believe it’s because I’ve been a little critical of his progress during the process

 

[buzzlightyear]

He was very lacking in dust sheeting anything and has damaged some of my furniture to

was he moving the furniture has well ,his
liability does not allowed him to move it ,only insure it just in case .

 

[Mattressback]

Nah, one was a light fitting that he was supposed to remove but I’d asked him to keep , he trashed it in a bin beyond recovery the other was a sideboard at bottom of stairs he broke the lower shelf on it

 

[Toneyz]

was he moving the furniture has well ,his
liability does not allowed him to move it ,only insure it just in case .

This is why I take my hat off to electricians who do rewires in occupied properties more trouble than its worth.

 

[buzzlightyear]

This is why I take my hat off to electricians who do rewires in occupied properties more trouble than its worth.

you try and move granny when she is strapped to the bed like little red riding hood.

 

[rolyberkin]

Was the job not undertaken on a fixed price, brave of you to agree to a day rate. What was the cost, number of days estimated and taken and size of house?

 

[Pete999]

I have had this out with a customer when completed the job for them
and them not paying on full bill ,he does not need to give you the cert and till Moines are paid in full, but how ever he must register the job within the 30days. until you pay him .

Think the best way forward for getting paid on time would be to, ex[lain in your quote when payment is due, say 50% at end of first fix, the rest on completion, and allow the client to hold back 10% of the cost for a period of say 1 month for any faults or mistakes, all within the 30 day period

 

[Midwest]

Whenever I submitted my invoice's, the appropriate certification & notification had already been submitted to my client. I did so because of the advice given here on this forum by members (as it is in this thread).

However, I cannot find anything in BS7671 which states such documentation has to be provided, before payment. Not surprising really, as BS7671 is about requirements for electrical regulations, not good business practise.

Reg 631.1 Upon completion of the verification of a new installation...…, an EIC.…. shall be provided. So define completion?

Those who have bought & sold houses recently, could explain that you can't have your keys for the new house, until the solicitors have received the various monies.

I purchased a new build property, but never received the documentation, until well after moving in (in fact it had to go back, as it hadn't been signed).

I would say it is good practise to provided certification before receiving payment, but there is no requirement to do so.

 

[Pete999]

Whenever I submitted my invoice's, the appropriate certification & notification had already been submitted to my client. I did so because of the advice given here on this forum by members (as it is in this thread).

However, I cannot find anything in BS7671 which states such documentation has to be provided, before payment. Not surprising really, as BS7671 is about requirements for electrical regulations, not good business practise.

Reg 631.1 Upon completion of the verification of a new installation...…, an EIC.…. shall be provided. So define completion?

Those who have bought & sold houses recently, could explain that you can't have your keys for the new house, until the solicitors have received the various monies.

I purchased a new build property, but never received the documentation, until well after moving in (in fact it had to go back, as it hadn't been signed).

I would say it is good practise to provided certification before receiving payment, but there is no requirement to do so.

Certification is part and partial to " doing the work" so unless certification is completed, the work is not completed, so why pay for work that isn't finished?

 

[Midwest]

Certification is part and partial to " doing the work" so unless certification is completed, the work is not completed, so why pay for work that isn't finished?

Completion of the installation will take place when both client & contractor agree; not just when the actual work has finished.

 

[Pete999]

Completion of the installation will take place when both client & contractor agree; not just when the actual work has finished.

The work is completed when the contractor has finished the work that was agreed at the onset of the contract. in my opinion.

 

[rolyberkin]

Any contract must involve an offer and an acceptance, conditions can be part of that acceptance on either side. That be said if in the terms of the contract the certificate is not provided until full payment has been made BS7671 is neither here or there as the contract would be legally binding. I would like to see any discussion at County Court.

 

[Midwest]

The work is completed when the contractor has finished the work that was agreed at the onset of the contract. in my opinion.

Other analogies (which I've read elsewhere), along with the MOT example are accountancy books, examination certificates, boiler service certificates, even that poxy Trust Mark, all require payment before you can receive your certificate.

One of the respected members, recounted a story where he hadn't been paid fully. And as the installed materials remained his property until paid, went round cut & chopped etc everything out.

Perhaps withholding a certificate is less extreme?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Personally, I’ve produced certification both before and after payment. Never been a problem for me.

As for MOT and Lanlord boiler safety certificates, in my experience, they are produced before payment.
Never used an Accountant or Trust mark.

 

[buzzlightyear]

This is to op you have sighed a contract to pay the monies in full plus extras ,now he takes you to court you will have to argue with a judge that what damge that was done and of course the dust sheets ,
all the best judge rinder .

 

[Midwest]

Personally, I’ve produced certification both before and after payment. Never been a problem for me.

As for MOT and Lanlord boiler safety certificates, in my experience, they are produced before payment.
Never used an Accountant or Trust mark.

Personally I always provided my clients with certificates etc before payment, no problems with payment for me. However I can understand some that have had late or problematic payers, and I can understand their viewpoint about withholding certificate until payment.

The certificate for an MOT is done electronically now days, but you won't get your copy until you paid along with your keys; although I could see that getting complicated. I was referring to my gas boiler cert, which was emailed 2 weeks after I paid them, and chased up.

Don't know what I was thinking, enrolling with Trust Mark

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not saying that you get the MOT certificate before payment necessarily (though that is often the case), saying the certificate is produced before payment.
That being said, last time I got an MOT on my car, I dropped the key off in the guy’s letter box, phoned up the next day to let him know.
He collected the car from my house, did the MOT and then returned the car to my house leaving the certificate and key in the locked boot of my car.
I then dropped the payment off in his letter box after phoning up to find out how much.

 

[richy3333]

In a domestic situation and given all the consumer law that exists I think you'd be on a sticky wicket to withhold a cert if not paid. If nothing else the homeowner would likely get the sympathy of the court. If you hand over a certificate its one less argument the customer has not to pay.

My T&C's say we do not move furniture and if we have to it is at the customers risk (albeit we take as much care as we can do). Happy to leave and return another time.

I no longer do occupied rewires either. Too much hassle!

 

[Pete999]

Think the best way forward for getting paid on time would be to, ex[lain in your quote when payment is due, say 50% at end of first fix, the rest on completion, and allow the client to hold back 10% of the cost for a period of say 1 month for any faults or mistakes, all within the 30 day period

Touche Mon Ami, Ant.

 

[Pete999]

Think the best way forward for getting paid on time would be to, ex[lain in your quote when payment is due, say 50% at end of first fix, the rest on completion, and allow the client to hold back 10% of the cost for a period of say 1 month for any faults or mistakes, all within the 30 day period

Touche Mon Ami, Ant, think my sausage fingers are getting worse, still no excuses, if you can't take criticism then don't dish it out, that's for me.

 

[Toneyz]

Touche Mon Ami, Ant, think my sausage fingers are getting worse, still no excuses, if you can't take criticism then don't dish it out, that's for me.

You dished it out first Those in glass houses and all that.

 

[Pete999]

You dished it out first Those in glass houses and all that.

Hence my reply Ant Touche Mon Ami translation serves me right for saying your spelling was wrong, my Friend. Crikey no offence meant Mate.

 

[MG201]

If Any doubts pay using a credit card then u have full insurance