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Hi all

Hoping I could get some independent advice on here. We've just bought our first property and had to get a full house rewire on the property (3 bed semi). Our electricians had finished the work within 2 days (2 electricians working on it). When asked when they were coming back, they said they didn't need to come back for a second fix as they'd finished it all. As we didn't know any better, we assumed all was fine and paid up because that said they wouldn't give paperwork till payment was made.

Since then, we have had a few issues. Our plasterer has been really surprised at the poor standard of work - they have had to plaster around all sockets and spotlights in kitchen.

1. The holes made to put in the sockets are generally quite a bit larger than the face of the external socket casing.
2. One of the sockets had a loose wire that was not connected when the plasterer was plastering around.
3. Another socket melted the builder's plug (smoke coming out as well), but didn't activate the trip switch.
4. An armoured cable they put in to light the garage is coming out of the consumer unit and through the floorboards in the bedroom in front of (rather than behind) the skirting board.
5. No paperwork 3 weeks after despite chasing him for this before everything else happened.

Would really appreciate any feedback as not sure if these are common or we really are within our rights to be taking this further? We tried contacting the electrician a couple of days ago, but he's not able to come till Monday evening, but his general response is telling me that he's blaming the plasterer's work.

Thanks!
 
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telectrix

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i have a mate in Leeds. NICEIC approved contractor, who hates seeing. shoddy work by cowboys. if you want, I can ask him to call and give you an unbiassed opinion.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Hi baddegg - good idea!

20190223_094844.jpg
armoured cable in front of skirting board

20190223_114949.jpg
wire disconnected

20190223_112101.jpg
A couple of examples of cutting around sockets.
20190223_111938.jpg

20190223_094717.jpg
Melted plug socket

Thanks in advance for any advice!
 
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  • #6
As in all these things, you have to allow the tradesperson to finish their work.
Thanks midwest- they've finished and it's been paid for. It doesn't sound like they want to do much else from the response we've had so far.
 
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  • #8
i have a mate in Leeds. NICEIC approved contractor, who hates seeing. shoddy work by cowboys. if you want, I can ask him to call and give you an unbiassed opinion.
Thanks Telectrix - will see what happens and if we need to take it further, will message.
 

Midwest

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Thanks midwest- they've finished and it's been paid for. It doesn't sound like they want to do much else from the response we've had so far.
You said 'We tried contacting the electrician a couple of days ago, but he's not able to come till Monday evening'.
 

telectrix

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it all looks arse about face to me. why have they fitted sockets before filling and plastering has been done?
 

Midwest

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not after seeing those pics. SWA in front of skirting board, ans did they use a JCB to cut out the sockets?
Not being funny, but the rest of the refurbishment looks shite as well, including the plasterer who seems to be slagging off to the client about the electrics.
 

Baddegg

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As others have said not tidy but not as bad as it could be and in the sparks defence the loose wire could’ve been caused by anyone moving that socket front.....did you agree to him second fixing before the spreads had been in?
 
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  • #15
You said 'We tried contacting the electrician a couple of days ago, but he's not able to come till Monday evening'.
Yes I sent a detailed message with all the concerns and a couple others. He said the plasterer probably pulled out the wire while plastering and it's necessary to remove that much wall to get to sockets. He didn't respond to the other points, but like I said he's coming over Monday. I just want to know whether we should be arguing this on Monday or we're just clueless first time homebuyers! Is it normal to not do a second fix?
 
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  • #16
As others have said not tidy but not as bad as it could be and in the sparks defence the loose wire could’ve been caused by anyone moving that socket front.....did you agree to him second fixing before the spreads had been in?
No - he just told us it wasn't necessary... not knowing any different, we went along with it.
 

Baddegg

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Well I wouldn’t second fix till after the spreads been in, but not unheard off.......unless you like ya sockets full of gypsum
 

Gavin John Hyde

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the holes might not be the tidiest but in fairness some walls when you chase them out crumble and lumps come out. the chasing doesn't look that bad to be fair from what I can see on the cable runs.
what was specified or agreed with how the armoured cable will be installed as from what i see the reason its in front the skirting board is because it comes out directly above from the consumer unit. even if behind it will still need to come out the wall a few inches below the bottom.
 

plugsandsparks

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That wire that has come out could well be live !!

I dont do domestic, but when i did, it was traditional to do first fix before the plasterer and 2nd fix after, painting could be done before 2nd fix or after, i preferred after because i am a bit nervous about marking the paint when 2nd fixing, its so easy to do.
Others may well comment on whether this method of 1st and 2nd fix before plastering is progress in the industry
 

Andy78

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The second fix has been done. That is the connection of all the accessories, testing, and energising.

This should not have been done ahead of the plastering but that is down to what arrangements were in place between you and all trades.

You should have received an EIC and building control paperwork.... keep pestering them for this, all in written form, and if they ignore you it's time to get in touch with trading standards and/or the scheme that your electrician belongs to.
 

GMES

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Write down all your concerns and then share them with the Electrician on Monday.
It's very important to give him chance to put his side across and if need be put the things right before going down any legal routes.
If he is totally dismissive or rude and refuses to do anything about it , then you take things further.
 
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  • #22
As others have said not tidy but not as bad as it could be and in the sparks defence the loose wire could’ve been caused by anyone moving that socket front.....did you agree to him second fixing before the spreads had been in?
No - he just told us it wasn't necessary... not knowing any different, we went along with it.
the holes might not be the tidiest but in fairness some walls when you chase them out crumble and lumps come out. the chasing doesn't look that bad to be fair from what I can see on the cable runs.
what was specified or agreed with how the armoured cable will be installed as from what i see the reason its in front the skirting board is because it comes out directly above from the consumer unit. even if behind it will still need to come out the wall a few inches below the bottom.
There wasn't a conversation about where the cable would go, so we didn't agree or not agree to that. I guess the whole unit will have to be boxed over, just wondering if that's standard practice.
The second fix has been done. That is the connection of all the accessories, testing, and energising.

This should not have been done ahead of the plastering but that is down to what arrangements were in place between you and all trades.

You should have received an EIC and building control paperwork.... keep pestering them for this, all in written form, and if they ignore you it's time to get in touch with trading standards and/or the scheme that your electrician belongs to.
Yeh - this wasn't agreed or disagreed. They just told us they wouldn't be back for a second fix as it wasn't necessary. We've only realised how much of an issue it's become since the plasterer is having a hard time covering round it... and how much easier (and better it would look) if things were done in order.
 
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  • #23
Write down all your concerns and then share them with the Electrician on Monday.
It's very important to give him chance to put his side across and if need be put the things right before going down any legal routes.
If he is totally dismissive or rude and refuses to do anything about it , then you take things further.
Yes this definitely sounds fair - I've emailed him a list and we will discuss it further in Monday. Just concerned that he didn't really seem to think any of it was a problem. I guess we'll see how the conversation goes Monday.
 
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  • #24
The second fix has been done. That is the connection of all the accessories, testing, and energising.

This should not have been done ahead of the plastering but that is down to what arrangements were in place between you and all trades.

You should have received an EIC and building control paperwork.... keep pestering them for this, all in written form, and if they ignore you it's time to get in touch with trading standards and/or the scheme that your electrician belongs to.
Also how quickly is paperwork usually done? It's been three weeks and I checked on NICEIC (who they're registered with) and no work's been registered...
 

Andy78

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Also how quickly is paperwork usually done? It's been three weeks and I checked on NICEIC (who they're registered with) and no work's been registered...
It's usually 28 days after work completion for work to be notified.
 

Andy78

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I'll have finished a first fix rewire by the end of Tuesday. Plasterers are coming in to fill my chases and skim every wall after that. Customer asked if I could second fix before the plasterer but I refused because it will make the plasterers job more difficult and probably result in soiled/damaged accessories.
That's how it should be to my mind. The quality of the finished job is worth more than getting my final invoice in early.
 

dinger809

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Hi, looking at those pics, putting back boxes in solid walls, you nearly always end up with larger holes than the boxes, due to the nature of brick/block work and plaster breaking off.
As others have said, fixing the face plates back, should be done after the plastering and painting has been completed.
As for the live coming out, with all due respect, if this had been fixed I’m securely (I always give my conductors a good tug to ensure they’re secure) it shouldn’t have happened, even if the plasterer has pulled the socket, as this could happen to anyone taking off the face plate in this instance.
A loose conductor should have been detected during testing, with a higher resistance reading. It would be interesting to see the schedule of test results for this circuit
 

Bob Geldoff1234

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I will weigh in here with my opinion.In general,from the photos,it doesn't look a bad job at all.There are grommets in the boxes,sleeved earth wires etc.The main issue is that they have put the socket fronts on before the plasterer has done his bit.Also the swa in front of the skirting could have been done better but generally a cupboard would be built around the consumer unit and wiring which would cover the swa,so really it's not too big a problem.
The wire coming out of the socket is due to the plasterer pulling it too far forward and yeah it should have been tighter.
The blown single socket looks like it's been caused by what ever was plugged into it,not the socket or the wiring.But with out taking off the single socket to check behind,its only speculation.
So in general the install isn't as bad as everyone is making out ie calling them cowboys etc.Trust me I have seen alot worse.
The only real crime these electrician's have committed is second fixing too early in my opinion.
 

telectrix

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and cutting out for boxes with a wrecking ball. no excuse when we have angle grinders and the like enabling neat cut outs requiring the minimum of filling.
 

dinger809

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Also, the cables should have had capping over them before the plasterer does his bit, to stop the plaster rotting the cables. This is a job for the electrician and is part of the first fix
 

ChrisElectrical88

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Plastering looks doggers.

Boxes are not to bad, more care probably would have been taken if the plasterers wernt following

Agree plasterer before second fix, however the client has possibly asked for it this was as a lived in house?
 

Dave OCD

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I think it's shoddy, I'd definitely have put the chased in new cables in oval tubing or at the very least capping and fixed it back properly too. And they're definitely not clean workers.
 

Baddegg

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I always oval my cables dinger, but that’s more to prevent the spreads nicking the cable and just plastering it over, don’t believe there’s any requirement in the regs....
 

SJD

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The cables should still have something over them, capping, tube or the like
Depends, the capping or oval conduit is more to keep the plasterer from damaging the cables with their trowel.

One builder I sometimes work alongside, prefers to avoid capping as it tends to bulge and can lead to thin patches of plaster. But his guys are careful and can work with cables just clipped to the bricks/blocks without damaging them.
 

dinger809

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Not always needed at all and definitely not indicative of a bad job.
I’ve not said the regs demand it, but as I said to another, in my opinion it should be done and shows a lack of professionalism and personal pride leaving the cables like that. It does protect them to during plastering and just feels (in my humble opinion) more professional
 

Rpa07

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That brown doesn’t even look like it’s been clamped so the tug test probably wasn’t carried out. I know the electrician and his mate need to defend themselves so not wishing to come down heavy.
Is 2 days a bit of a rush for a full rewire with two of them. I feel it would lead to some sloppiness and with a want not to return to second fix but to do it all in one instead speaks of greed to me and not customer satisfaction.
I hope he steps up and puts all right and proves us wrong, for the sake of the trade.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #44
Hi, looking at those pics, putting back boxes in solid walls, you nearly always end up with larger holes than the boxes, due to the nature of brick/block work and plaster breaking off.
As others have said, fixing the face plates back, should be done after the plastering and painting has been completed.
As for the live coming out, with all due respect, if this had been fixed I’m securely (I always give my conductors a good tug to ensure they’re secure) it shouldn’t have happened, even if the plasterer has pulled the socket, as this could happen to anyone taking off the face plate in this instance.
A loose conductor should have been detected during testing, with a higher resistance reading. It would be interesting to see the schedule of test results for this circuit
Thanks - that's a good point. We could ask for the schedule of test results. I'm hoping he'll be bringing some paperwork on Monday.
 

Baddegg

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I would take some solice in the fact that if 2 people rewired a 3 bedhouse in 2 days they fairly experienced Sarah, if a little hasty,
 
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  • #46
That brown doesn’t even look like it’s been clamped so the tug test probably wasn’t carried out. I know the electrician and his mate need to defend themselves so not wishing to come down heavy.
Is 2 days a bit of a rush for a full rewire with two of them. I feel it would lead to some sloppiness and with a want not to return to second fix but to do it all in one instead speaks of greed to me and not customer satisfaction.
I hope he steps up and puts all right and proves us wrong, for the sake of the trade.
Thanks all for your replies - it's definitely helped us feel more justified in the concerns we have, but helped us to know what is reasonable to expect in terms of cutting out etc. All much appreciated
 

Leesparkykent

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The chasing does look sloppy but the installation could be fine. To be totally honest the cock up seems like, lack of planning/naivety on your behalf which the electrician shouldn’t be held countable for imo. The installation could be turned off, unscrew the accessories, pull them forward, sandwich bag them up, plasterer can make good then screw the accessories back. Plasterer is probably making a mountain out of mole hill because his work looks shite!
 
Thanks all for your replies - it's definitely helped us feel more justified in the concerns we have, but helped us to know what is reasonable to expect in terms of cutting out etc. All much appreciated
Contact us - http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Contact-Us
I wouldn't trust them to put it right. Contact their scheme. Ask them to help. Contact your local council and complain about people operating like that in the local area ask your council to liase with the scheme as well.
 
The chasing does look sloppy but the installation could be fine. To be totally honest the cock up seems like, lack of planning/naivety on your behalf which the electrician shouldn’t be held countable for imo. The installation could be turned off, unscrew the accessories, pull them forward, sandwich bag them up, plasterer can make good then screw the accessories back. Plasterer is probably making a mountain out of mole hill because his work looks shite!
If the electrician didn't test he should have made it very clear not to use the power. Either she's lying or the spark should be out of business. This is a Web forum, we can't decide
 

Bob Geldoff1234

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Contact us - http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Contact-Us
I wouldn't trust them to put it right. Contact their scheme. Ask them to help. Contact your local council and complain about people operating like that in the local area ask your council to liase with the scheme as well.
Hold on there mate.A bit OTT.So for screwing accessories on too early they need reporting to numerous organisations for this heinous crime? Get a grip.It's posts like this that get my goat:mad:
 
Hold on there mate.A bit OTT.So for screwing accessories on too early they need reporting to numerous organisations for this heinous crime? Get a grip.It's posts like this that get my goat:mad:
It's unsafe work and taking advantage of unsuspecting members of the public that get my goat. I'm well aware of the standards on this forum. Your attitude doesn't surprise me
 
You can disagree all you like but show me how that's OK. I can show you where it's not acceptable.
The standards on this forum are ridiculous.
 

Leesparkykent

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It's unsafe work and taking advantage of unsuspecting members of the public that get my goat. I'm well aware of the standards on this forum. Your attitude doesn't surprise me
I take it the unsafe bit is the fact the line conductor has come out? For all you know the plaster could of been yanking it around left, right and center. Because it’s been 2nd fixed before its been plastered you think it’s acceptable to report the contractor to the their scheme and also the local council....Have a word o_O

 
The second fix has been done. That is the connection of all the accessories, testing, and energising.

This should not have been done ahead of the plastering but that is down to what arrangements were in place between you and all trades.

You should have received an EIC and building control paperwork.... keep pestering them for this, all in written form, and if they ignore you it's time to get in touch with trading standards and/or the scheme that your electrician belongs to.
Why do I get called dumb for stating what this fella and any reasonable person would state
 
D

Deleted member 105166

Don’t jump the gun, the guy is coming back on Monday to see his customer and hopefully rectify her concerns.
 
What's the term we often use for competent person schemes on this board and in the industry generally? Is it scam?
It wasn't done right. It was unsafe. If it was tested when it was finished where are the certificates. If there's no certificate did he inform her, in writing to cover his back, not to switch it on?
Does safe locking off include for example a lock?
 

Leesparkykent

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What's the term we often use for competent person schemes on this board and in the industry generally? Is it scam?
It wasn't done right. It was unsafe. If it was tested when it was finished where are the certificates. If there's no certificate did he inform her, in writing to cover his back, not to switch it on?
Does safe locking off include for example a lock?
why shouldn’t it of been switched on, if all tested and screwed back?
 

Spoon

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For all you know the plaster could of been yanking it around left, right and center.
From the pic, it wouldn't have taken much for the cable to come out, as it looks like it's only had connection at the tip of the wire.

upload_2019-2-23_22-53-5.png

Lets see what he has to say on Monday.
 

KEV 1 N

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Many moons ago as an apprentice, I had my spell on “house Bashing” Four of us, 1 electrician, 2nd and 3rd year apprentices and a labourer. We could rewire a house in a day, mostly done by 2/3 o’clock, some times we were there till 8pm!
We would chop out, fix boxes, wire, cap then 2nd fix in the day, the plasterer would follow the next day....this was standard on Housing Association properties. Not ideal but it is done that way.
So 2 electricians over two days is about the same pace.

The chasing isn’t the best but it certainly isn’t bad.

The melted socket is likely to be caused by what has been plugged into it (plasters 110v transformer would be my guess)

The loose wire is a bit more worrying and is probably down to rushing. Proper testing should have detected that issue.

The SWA going in front of skirting.....who knows why, perhaps there was something obstructing the route behind the skirting or being in a rush it was quicker to put it in front
 
D

Deleted member 105166

If a customer is unhappy with any trade’s work or service, the first course of action is to approach the company or individual to discuss and agree remedial work. I don’t understand why @Blaspark is suggesting reporting the electrician to their scheme, the council, etc. particularly when the sparky has already arranged to go back on site. If he/she could not be contacted or had been dismissive that would be a different case, but that’s not what Sarah has outlined here. Anyway, even if the scheme were notified, their first course of action would be to contact their member, whom would rightly say the job is not yet finished and there’s a visit already arranged with the customer for Monday. No further action is needed at this stage.
 
T

The Ghost

Hi @Blaspark you do have a point but this is not a war. I think you are saying exposed live parts/sockets should not be left for the client to deal with. You are correct. Is that right?
 

Lucien Nunes

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Proper testing should have detected that issue.
The line conductor that pulled free probably won't have shown up in tests. The screw seems to have indented the copper (albeit in the wrong place) so there would have been a solid metal-metal connection when the testing was done. It was mechanically weak because it wasn't inserted far enough into the terminal.

The problem with this issue is that while it is probably a one-off, it could also point to a bad termination technique on the part of one of the installers, who might simply not be in the habit of tug-testing etc and might have done the same in other fittings.

The burnt socket could be anything, possibly the plug that was inserted. If the front of the socket is more burnt than the terminals at the back, it wasn't the electricians' fault. If the terminals are badly burnt, I would suspect another inadequately inserted cable and would then be keen to have all accessories checked. OP- you wouldn't necessarily expect anything to trip due to bad contact that causes overheating. The MCB would trip in the event of a short-circuit, and the RCD in the event of a leakage e.g. shock to a person. Means to detect this kind of fault (AFDDs) are just being tentatively introduced. They have to be pretty sophisticated to tell the difference between a heater heating up and a plug heating up!
 

telectrix

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2 days, 2 blokes. rushed job, i'd have allowed a week for 2 skilled sparks to do the job right. ( used to be 4 days, but at 72 i is slowing down a bit, knees and back refusing to obey brain ).
 

Risteard

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Proper testing should have detected that issue.
I wouldn't agree there. To be honest inspection would be far, far more likely to pick that up than testing. If there was fortuitous contact between the conductors during testing there is no likelihood of finding that through test readings. It's possible to pick up poor contact resistance but it really depends how the two conductors are seated. If the contact is good between them (though not securely screwed together) I don't think passing 200mA through them will tell you much.
 

telectrix

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basically old scholl like what i was taught. wriggle and pull.if it don't come out, it's good. sod these digital devil's overpriced MFTs. eyes have been finding faults long before the LCD screen with half the characters missing were invented.
upload_2019-2-24_13-32-48.jpeg
 

dinger809

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I wouldn't agree there. To be honest inspection would be far, far more likely to pick that up than testing. If there was fortuitous contact between the conductors during testing there is no likelihood of finding that through test readings. It's possible to pick up poor contact resistance but it really depends how the two conductors are seated. If the contact is good between them (though not securely screwed together) I don't think passing 200mA through them will tell you much.
Tug test, works every time
 
Was the property occupied (ie were you living there) whilst the work was being done? As sometimes to maintain heating/power/lighting etc.within the property some second fix is inevitable.
The armoured cable being glanded into the bottom would be exposed for about 200mm before it could be routed behind skirting in any case, but maybe the sparks thought a unit might be built in front of the consumer unit!
The loose wire, most likely a poor connection (as others have said) which pulled out when pulled forward by the plasterer.
The overheated socket, most likely a loose connection in the plug top!
 

dinger809

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I wouldn't agree there. To be honest inspection would be far, far more likely to pick that up than testing. If there was fortuitous contact between the conductors during testing there is no likelihood of finding that through test readings. It's possible to pick up poor contact resistance but it really depends how the two conductors are seated. If the contact is good between them (though not securely screwed together) I don't think passing 200mA through them will tell you much.
Tug test, works every time
That is just being gullible to think all think it will be perfect. Bit like being sure the fridge light is off, when you shut the door.
The tug test will make sure it doesn’t come out, is what I was saying
 
Yeah tug test won't find every problematic termination, but it finds enough to be worth the 10 seconds it takes to do it, especially with multiple conductors into one terminal. It's no substitute for good workmanship, inspection and testing just complementary.
 

telectrix

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That is just being gullible to think all think it will be perfect. Bit like being sure the fridge light is off, when you shut the door.
i'll tell you the answer as soon as i work out how to open the fridge door from inside. brrrrrr. it's cold in here.
 

Risteard

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The cables should be routed through 20mm round conduit.

Am I right @Risteard ?
It's certainly considered good practice here (or indeed standard practice). Across the border it's actually mandatory to protect cables against plaster e.g. with conduit (although as we all know the chemical composition of plaster nowadays isn't actually likely to cause any issue).
 
N

Nigel

Questions I would like answered?

1. How much was the quote?

2. What checks did you make prior to engaging with this particular contractor?
 

spark 68

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Why Essex ? what has that got to do with the thread ?
People have been charged top whack and still had a sh** job done.
 

telectrix

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Why Essex ? what has that got to do with the thread ?
People have been charged top whack and still had a sh** job done.
essex post is relevant. if the quote was super low, no wonder thety done in 2 days. if high, then poss rip off.
 

spark 68

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I disagree Tel,
It could have been done at short notice, plus I don't agree with slagging another spark off without giving a right of reply, unless it was a total abortion from the beginning, you should know me by now, price does not come into at this moment in time
 
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