Why are my LED ceiling lights continually failing?

[Peskiwabit]

I hope someone here can help me sort out why I keep blowing my ceiling lights because the company I bought the lamps from are no help what so ever, they just cost me more money!


About 4 months ago I converted my kitchen lighting from a single 100w 240v tungston bulb to four 3.3w 12v MR16 LED downlights for energy saving reasons. What a mistake it's turning out to be because 2 months ago 3 led's failed, starting with flicker until its death.

So, I contacted the company I bought them from and explained my problem, I also asked if they have had many of these led's returned faulty.

Keeping the telephone conversation short; They said that my driver was too powerful for their lamps (I didn't understand this then and still don't undurstand it now) and I would be better to use 2 of their own brand 12w drivers in place of the one 16w Aurora I was using. Also, they said they had 9 led's in total returned faulty and they sell a lot of these.


I ended up agreeing to purchase 2 of their drivers plus spare led's while I returned the faulty ones... (these ended up being lost in the post. :sigh: ).

Right, the new drivers were installed and running until a month later (yesterday) another led has failed. Today I called the company and was now told my cabling was too thick. Well after a while listening to him talking and getting me nowhere I hung up and started writing this post.


Details of what I used for the conversion:
1st conversion
Existing wiring from the ceiling rose terminated in a junction box and power to the driver from the existing light switch.
0.75mm 2 Core Flex, Current Capacity 6a from driver to led's.
4x 12v 3.3w MR16 led's connected in parallel (use constant voltage only).
1x Aurora 12v 16w DC Constant Voltage LED Driver (AU-LED16T).
Airspace above the kitchen is the roof space.

2nd conversion
Same as above except:
2x company branded 12v 12w constant voltage drivers (each driver powering 2 led's in parallel).


I hope this post isn't confusing, I'm not sure what to do other than go back to what works and apologise to the environment for trying.

 

[Marvo]

The only way you can over drive LED lamps is by supplying them with too high voltage. The Aurora driver you originally used looks like it was right for your set up and Aurora has always been a reliable make in my experience. It might just be that their lamps are useless. What make are they and did you Google them to get an idea of general opinion on their quality?

 

[mayfair]

IMO Ive bought 3 quid Leds and 20 quid ones, 240v and 12v all crap, maybe im unlucky!

 

[telectrix]

mayfair, it's not the LEDs, it's the fluctuating voltage and frequency of the supply in sunny spain. you'll just have to pedal a bit faster.

 

[mayfair]

You can go and fluctuate yourself !!!!!! m8 i can see that can be a problem with the main but surely the regulators should cope with the fluctuating mains and supply the 12v led with 12v

mayfair, it's not the LEDs, it's the fluctuating voltage and frequency of the supply in sunny spain. you'll just have to pedal a bit faster.

 

[telectrix]

yeah, i think he's bought some dodgy LEDs. having said that, i recently fitted 6 GU10 fit 3watt in our kitchen ( £8+vat each ) and 1 failed after 3 months. wholesaler exchanged no prob though.

 

[mayfair]

Thing is Tel dont know about you but, its ok these people changing things no problem but im sick a going back changing lights then going to the wholesalers. it all costs US money and no matter how nice and understanding the customer we still look a tad silly. think they need to get these Leds sorted.

 

[roukel01]

I used a few 12V ones, absolutely useless. failed in no time at all. Used Mains GU10 type LED lamps, and upto now, no problems at all.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh the good old days, no drivers, no transformers, no GU10, no M16 ...................just a quick twist and there she glows .......... and Mrs Brown knew that when it never worked you un-twist it and get one of these

 

[telectrix]

never tried the 12v ones. too much trouble fitting trannies or drivers. 240v every time. better than those cfl ( candles for lighting ) crap.

 

[telectrix]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh the good old days, no drivers, no transformers, no GU10, no M16 ...................just a quick twist and there she glows .......... and Mrs Brown knew that when it never worked you un-twist it and get one of these

light's a bit blue for my liking.

 

[Peskiwabit]

Marvo, i'm not sure of the make of these led's. They just have a company name (LustrumLight) on it followed by MR16-WW 12v 60LED. On their website it says "We import our products from an ISO9001-2008 Certificated Company".

I did some googling and got mixed opinions, some experience faulty led's, some are happy to keep sending them back for replacement, others rate them highly but I'm not sure for what reason. I'm simply fed up with the unreliability as it just costs more time and money having them replaced.

Reading all the replies, and listening to the back of my mind the general opinion seems to be that 12v led's are the problem. Surely there is a company that makes reliable ones.

But what to do now... Tungston, Halogen (I'm not much of a fan of these), 240v Led's. I've some of the 240v led's, in other rooms, which have lasted since February this year (now I've doomed them!) so I might go that route. Failing that, back to tungston.

 

[electromonkey]

I'm with you there Tel. I only use a driver and/or tranny on LED's if it's for mood lighting and then it's all top quality gear so I never have any problems.

To the OP. Can you return all the gear they've sent you and go for the GU10 option?

 

[electromonkey]

Marvo, i'm not sure of the make of these led's. They just have a company name (LustrumLight) on it followed by MR16-WW 12v 60LED. On their website it says "We import our products from an ISO9001-2008 Certificated Company".

I did some googling and got mixed opinions, some experience faulty led's, some are happy to keep sending them back for replacement, others rate them highly but I'm not sure for what reason. I'm simply fed up with the unreliability as it just costs more time and money having them replaced.

Reading all the replies, and listening to the back of my mind the general opinion seems to be that 12v led's are the problem. Surely there is a company that makes reliable ones.

But what to do now... Tungston, Halogen (I'm not much of a fan of these), 240v Led's. I've some of the 240v led's, in other rooms, which have lasted since February this year (now I've doomed them!) so I might go that route. Failing that, back to tungston.

Ideally, you're better off with British made LED's and drivers. I've installed gear that customers have bought from Germany etc and they always go ----- up.

 

[Peskiwabit]

I could try getting a refund on the lot but I don't think they will accept. Or another return gets lost in the post.

What british made led's and drivers are out there, and do you think 12v is ok british made?

 

[Dunc]

If i'm looking at the right item those lamps you've bought are only £4.20 and they come with a 6 month guarantee. For that money i wouldn't expect anything good and at 3.3W trying to do the job of a 50W halogen they'll be working proper hard hence why they only have such a short guarantee. If you want something good that will last the course have a look at Halers EvoLEDs. The non dimmable ones come in at £47.40 a piece if you shop around online so they are a lot dearer then the ones you have however they have a 7 year guarantee and at 7.9W will still be kind to the environment.

 

[electromonkey]

I could try getting a refund on the lot but I don't think they will accept. Or another return gets lost in the post.

What british made led's and drivers are out there, and do you think 12v is ok british made?

LED Lightingry these. They are a small independent company. What they don't know about LED's isn't worth knowing. They do a pretty prompt delivery service too. Hope it helps.

 

[electromonkey]

Sorry, don't know where the link went??????

Modern Lighting, Led Lighting, Ceiling Lights, Bathroom Lights, Wall Lights, Garden Lighting, Landscape Lighting, Mood Lighting, Colour Changing Lighting, Outdoor Lighting | Inspirational Lighting UK

 

[FAA Greenie]

I think with LED lighting at the moment, the old saying 'you get what you pay for' is very apt. I have tried the £4 ones from various places, they are all crap, look like a cauliflower and don't last long. I now only fit LEDlite ones or the ones that CEF supply (Can't remember the brand name). They are £15 a shot for GU10 retro fit and alledgedly guaranteed for 30,000 hours, however I have had 3 in my bathroom, 6 in the kitchen for over 10 months and countless that i have supplied to customers without one report back so far of any failing. (yes, i know, i have spoken too soon and tomorrow i will recieve several phone calls)!!

 

[DurhamSparky]

i fit kosnic LEDS only!!!

and only fit manufactur assembled LED light fittings...... JCC etc...

 

[Adam W]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to fit an MR16 LED when you can get a GU10; it's just introducing a transformer to go wrong, not to mention those horrible little pin connectors.

 

[FAA Greenie]

i fit kosnic LEDS only!!!

and only fit manufactur assembled LED light fittings...... JCC etc...

Where you get them from DS? You got a link?

 

[DurhamSparky]

Bemco Electrical Wholesalers!! (durham branch)

 

[FAA Greenie]

Found em, I think that my first post is still true tho, you have to pay quite a lot for a good LED lamp. Often quite hard to explain to a cusomer that the 12 downlights you have just fitted to the kitchen will cost em near enough £200 for bulbs if they want to go green!!

 

[Peskiwabit]

Thank you all for contributing to this thread.

I decided that I'll give the GU10's a go, but not to choose too cheaply this time like I did with the MR16's.

Live and learn hey!

 

[rick.oshea]

About 4 months ago I converted my kitchen lighting from a single 100w 240v tungston bulb to four 3.3w 12v MR16 LED downlights for energy saving reasons. What a mistake it's turning out to be because 2 months ago 3 led's failed, starting with flicker until its death.

Keeping the telephone conversation short; They said that my driver was too powerful for their lamps (I didn't understand this then and still don't undurstand it now) Right, the new drivers were installed and running until a month later (yesterday) another led has failed. Today I called the company and was now told my cabling was too thick. Well after a while listening to him talking and getting me nowhere I hung up and started writing this post.

Not to sure where they were going with the wiring being too thick, (sounded as if the guy on the other end of the phone was the only thing a bit thick but I can throw a 'bit of light' on your original question for future reference........why they flickered and died.

Most of the modern tranny's (the electical type these days are not transformers as we know them but a box of electronics. Within little white boxes are thyrisors (an electronic swich) which have a specific hold-on current. If you use a standard electronic transformer (or one which has too high a rating), the current being drawn through led's is not enough to keep the 'electronic switch (thyristor)' closed.

What happens then is that the led switches on, the thyristor doesnt hold on because not enough current is flowing and it swiches off. The tranny sees it has dropped to 0V, so resets and switches it back on again..... and the cycle begins again, not enough current and off...... seen as a flicker because it is happening at 50 times a second or possibly more. This keeps happening until it fails.

It def sounds as if the first prob was above, but the flickering may have caused the premature ending of the other led the second time around, that's if you have the correct driver now in place??

If unsure, see if you can get hold of the 'manufacturer's tech support line' as they will be able to offer sound advice on driver v fittings.

If you go down the GU10 route, have a look at these. I fitted some of these off ebay - they do look different, I'll grant you that but once fitted, you don't notice them and they give off more of a dispersed light rather than the conventional direct spot. they take a couple of weeks to come over from our friends abroad, but they have ben really reliable - out of the 14 fitted, only lost one (just 6 led's on the lamp went out), 1 day after it went in, prob manufacturing fault, but they refunded me the cost.

They do a warm white (which I went for) or the clinical pure white.

GU10 Warm White 60 SMD LED Spot Light Bulb Lamp 230V | eBay


At £3 a pop, you can't go wrong....

Graham

 

[AIM]

I have had problems with LEDs overheating in enclosed fire rated down lights.

I fit these Ansell Lighting now and don't have a problem with hot LEDs.

I also fit the Kosnic GU10 LEDs. Only had one fail, that was within 30 seconds of fitting. Luckily had a spare in the van.

Has it been published yet that LEDs fitted in enclosed lamp holders are to have lamp-life reduced by 75%. I was told this after purchasing LEDs and enclosed lampholders from the Wholesaler. The original claim of 5 years guarantee will be honoured for previous purchases.

 

[mogga]

for anyone thinking of fitting LED Downlights and convincing client to put money out try HALERS web site they have a savings calculater its more use for large commercial as the figures for 100 lights running 24/7 over 5 years (Halers gaurentee is 7 years) are well impressive ant the figures for amount of lights , electricity prices, time of lighting being on are all variable

 

[rallyandy]

I tend to use a simple Toroidal transformer which will run quite a lot of LED lamps if required, i find that most new so called drivers still put too much of an inrush current and voltage to the lamps which shortens their life considerably, where as toroidal transformers start at 0V and only supply what is needed hope this helps.
please give me your thoughts on this guys as i have never had a problem this way with any LED lamp cheers Andy

 

[mogga]

thanks for your "input" mr NU welcome to the forum as you are a company it would be good if you could talk to DAN about possible sponsering ect or just for teckky input should giuys have problems
Please dont advertise till you speak to dan
Although your first post seems right on with advice